2250XL-ExPro match?

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Four.nine
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Post by Four.nine »

Editorial:
Wrong. I was wrong. The main purpose of this ExPro-2250XL thread was to show how wrong Aktivschach was. How wrong the 2058 Elo, “higher than Cougar/ExPro rating” was. But, Aktivschach was right. All along, they were right.
I started out with the rather simple, reasonable assumption that a 16 MHz machine is absolutely faster, and stronger than a similar 10 MHz machine and couldn’t possibly have a lower Elo. And then a light bulb went on, the switch thrown possibly by several of NICK’s comment.

Let’s use an analogy...what kind should we use? A car analogy...of course:
There are two drag race teams, with very similar cars: one with a 100 HP engine and the other with a 160 HP engine. The racing association notifies both teams of an upcoming event. Both teams tune their cars to the best of their ability for a ¼ mile event, but both teams know that the 160 HP car will win. However, the race association can’t get the ¼ mile track and notifies both teams that a short 1/16 mile track will be substituted. The 160 HP team is still confident it will win. The 100 HP team is forlorn, it doesn’t matter. They will still lose. Suddenly, a light bulb goes off in the head of one engineer at the 100 HP camp: What if we tune the engine control unit, transmission shift points and rear end gear ratio and optimize them for an extremely high torque initial burst and maybe we can squeak out a narrow win right at the 1/16 mile mark?
The 100 HP squeaked out a narrow win right at the 1/16 mile mark.

Back to table top chess computers. I believe in a similar way, the 10 MHz RS2250XL can (and does) have a higher Elo than the 16 MHz ExPro/Cougar... BUT ONLY UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS. The primary condition is time: The “active” or 30 sec/move time parameter that Aktivschach has established to assess chess computer strength is “just right” for the 2250. Whether the programmer (Morsch?) did this intentionally or if it is just an inherent attribute of the program: who knows? But, I can tell you, I have a new respect for the RS2250XL at fast time limits.

Nick made a statement: “Ratings are just guidelines”. That’s EXACTLY right. I now “get” that”. Take 9 table top computer chess testers....and you get 9 different table top computer chess methodologies. Choose which one works for you.

As to my ExPro-RS2250XL “be all and end all” match: it is “perfect”. Perfect as long as perfect means: 1 min/move, RS2250 at default turn on and ExPro on Selective Search/Tournament. Other than those EXACT parameters, it is as flawed as ANY other test methodology. I will post the 7 final games, simply because I will finish what I started: a 20 game match between Saitek ExPro and RS2250XL under VERY SPECIFIC CONDITIONS.

Final Note: Apologies to Aktivachach and their testers. Your testing is correct.
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

Hi Four_Nine

Well that's it, you got it. Here is an example from a rating test that I created a while ago which Alain then used to test his Par Excellence:

http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php? ... &start=165

Code: Select all

LEONARD BARDEN - RATING TEST - CENTRE CONTROL GAME 1 WHITE
BOTVINNIK. M - GROB. H - ZURICH. SWITZERLAND 1956
CC9     Par Excellence  Par Excellence   Par Excellence   Par Excellence  Par Excellence 
30S/H3  Lvl 6 - 60m/5'  Lvl 7 - 60m/15'  Lvl 8 - 60m/30'  Lvl 9 - 60m/1h  Lvl 10 - 30m/1h 
41.4    50.1            55.4             54.6             52.7            51.5 
51.75%  62.63%          69.25%           68.25%           65.88%          64.38% 

SM - LEONARD BARDEN - RATING TEST - CENTRE CONTROL GAME 2 BLACK
MANGINI. A - KOTOV. A - MAR DEL PLATA. ARGENTINA 1957
CC9     Par Excellence  Par Excellence   Par Excellence   Par Excellence  Par Excellence 
30S/H3  Lvl 6 - 60m/5'  Lvl 7 - 60m/15'  Lvl 8 - 60m/30'  Lvl 9 - 60m/1h  Lvl 10 - 30m/1h 
38.9    42.6            49.9             49.1             54.3            46.8 
48.63%  53.25%          62.38%           61.38%           67.88%          58.50% 

SM - LEONARD BARDEN - RATING TEST - SUPERIOR DEVELOPMENT GAME 3 BLACK
GREEN. A. Y. - L. BARDEN - BOGNOR. ENGLAND 1956
CC9     Par Excellence  Par Excellence   Par Excellence   Par Excellence  Par Excellence 
30S/H3  Lvl 6 - 60m/5'  Lvl 7 - 60m/15'  Lvl 8 - 60m/30'  Lvl 9 - 60m/1h  Lvl 10 - 30m/1h 
59.6    57.4            57.9             57.4             59.8            59.8 
74.50%  71.75%          72.38%           71.75%           74.75%          74.75% 

SM - LEONARD BARDEN - RATING TEST - POSITIONAL PLAY GAME 4 WHITE
UNZICKER. W - SANCHEZ. L - SALTSJOBADEN. SWEDEN 1952
CC9     Par Excellence  Par Excellence   Par Excellence   Par Excellence  Par Excellence 
30S/H3  Lvl 6 - 60m/5'  Lvl 7 - 60m/15'  Lvl 8 - 60m/30'  Lvl 9 - 60m/1h  Lvl 10 - 30m/1h 
46.7    50.2            43               52.6             50.2            49.5 
58.38%  62.75%          53.75%           65.75%           62.75%          61.88% 

Total after 4 games
CC9     Par Excellence  Par Excellence   Par Excellence   Par Excellence  Par Excellence 
30S/H3  Lvl 6 - 60m/5'  Lvl 7 - 60m/15'  Lvl 8 - 60m/30'  Lvl 9 - 60m/1h  Lvl 10 - 30m/1h 
186.6   200.3           206.2            213.7            217.0           207.6 
58.31%  62.59%          64.44%           66.78%           67.81%          64.88% 
1749    1878            1933             2003             2034            1946
In the above example you will see that in these tests Par Excellence reached it's sweet spot performance at 1 minute per move. At 2 minutes where you would have thought would improve its performance even more, it actually went worse and performed at below the rating it achieved at 30 seconds per move. This kind of shows you how individual programs can differ at different time settings with different sweet spots.

Actually the same link has all kinds things which were useful information resulting from these tests.

Below link same test, different page shows clone results from playing these test games:

http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php? ... &start=150

Clone Spot # 1
9 Mephisto Magellan 64.5 80.63% 2419
9 Mephisto Sentator 64.5 80.63% 2419

Clone Spot # 2
13 Saitek Cougar 63.1 78.88% 2366
13 Mephisto Mystery 12 MHz 63.1 78.88% 2366

Clone Spot # 3
15 Saitek Chess Challenger 63.0 78.75% 2363
15 Saitek GK2100 63.0 78.75% 2363

Clone Spot # 4
17 Radioshack Mega 2050X 62.8 78.50% 2355
17 Saitek Travel Champion 2080 62.8 78.50% 2355

Clone Spot # 5
21 Radioshack 2250XL Selective 61.5 76.88% 2306
21 Saitek Cosmos 61.5 76.88% 2306
21 Saitek Expert Travel Chess 61.5 76.88% 2306

Clone Spot # 6
24 Saitek GK2000 61.0 76.25% 2288
24 Mephisto Miami 61.0 76.25% 2288

Clone Spot # 7
27 Radioshack 2200X Selective 59.6 74.50% 2235
27 Saitek Schach-Trainer 59.6 74.50% 2235

Wow looking back at all this, it makes me realize that we did all sorts of fun things a few years ago.... hmmmmm.... what happened...we must be getting old.

regards
Nick
Four.nine
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Post by Four.nine »

Wow looking back at all this, it makes me realize that we did all sorts of fun things a few years ago.... hmmmmm.... what happened...we must be getting old.

regards
_________________
Nick


Yes, one problem is I only joined about a year ago...so I am probably rehashing a lot of things that were covered a while back.

Also: you posted about ExPro needing a separate rating:

Absolutely.

The ExPro is a Cougar....until the finish. The ExPro has significant improvements in the endgame that make it much stronger overall.

Note: In some way, I somehow sensed this. In home tournaments I ran a while back, ExPro always seemed to do a little better than Cougar. I just chalked it up to luck with the openings. Now I know it is a program change:
And it is much stronger when the hidden options are opened and Selective search/ Tournament are enabled.

I'd be interested in someone doing a MachIV- ExPro reversed colors match.
Maybe someRein, I mean someone, has both these units.
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

Actually I take it back, after 7 test games Alain showed 30 seconds per move (60/30) as the optimum performance by Par Excellence:

http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php? ... &start=240
Alain wrote:OK, I have finished the full Par Excellence test, i.e. 7 games x 6 playable levels

Code: Select all

          FIDELITY       FIDELITY       FIDELITY       FIDELITY       FIDELITY       FIDELITY
          Par Excellence Par Excellence Par Excellence Par Excellence Par Excellence Par Excellence
          SPRACKLEN      SPRACKLEN      SPRACKLEN      SPRACKLEN      SPRACKLEN      SPRACKLEN
          Lvl 6 - 60m/5' Lvl 7 - 60m/15'Lvl 8 - 60m/30'Lvl 9 - 60m/1h Lvl 10 - 30m/1hLvl 11 - 40m/2h
          6502 5Mhz      6502 5Mhz      6502 5Mhz      6502 5Mhz      6502 5Mhz      6502 5Mhz
Game #1     Move    pts    Move    pts    Move    pts    Move    pts    Move    pts    Move    pts
         1  7. e5   1,0   7. Bb5+  1,8   7. Bb5+  1,8   7. Bb5+  1,8    7. e5   1,0    7. e5   1,0
         2 8. Bf4   3,0   8. Bg5   1,6   8. Bg5   1,6   8. Bf4   3,0   8. Bf4   3,0   8. Bf4   3,0
         3 9. Bxf6  1,0   9. Qa4+  2,2   9. Rb1   0,0   9. Rb1   0,0   9. Rb1   0,0   9. Rb1   0,0
         4 10. Rb1  2,2   10. Rb1  2,2   10. Rb1  2,2   10. Qd2  2,6   10. b3   0,0   10. b3   0,0
         5 11. Bc4  3,0   11. Bc4  3,0   11. Bd3  1,0   11. Bd3  1,0   11. Bd3  1,0   11. Bd3  1,0
         6 12. 0-0  3,0   12. 0-0  3,0   12. 0-0  3,0   12. 0-0  3,0   12. 0-0  3,0   12. 0-0  3,0
         7 13. Na4  0,0   13. Qc2  1,0   13. Qc2  1,0   13. Qc2  1,0   13. Bc4  0,0   13. Bc4  0,0
         8 14. Qc2  2,0   14. Qc2  2,0   14. Qc2  2,0   14. Qc2  2,0   14. Qc2  2,0   14. Qc2  2,0
         9 15. a5   1,4   15. a5   1,4   15. a5   1,4   15. a5   1,4   15. a5   1,4   15. a5   1,4
        10 16. b3   0,0   16. b3   0,0   16. Qb3  0,0   16. Qb3  0,0   16. b3   0,0   16. b3   0,0
        11 17. Nd2  1,2   17. Nd2  1,2  17. Nxe5  1,6  17. Nxe5  1,6  17. Nxe5  1,6  17. Nxe5  1,6
        12 18. h3   3,0   18. g3   0,0   18. h3   3,0   18. h3   3,0   18. h3   3,0   18. h3   3,0
        13 19. Qb3  0,0   19. Na4  3,0   19. Kh1  0,0   19. Kh1  0,0   19. Na4  3,0   19. Na4  3,0
        1420. Qxa4  3,0  20. Qxa4  3,0  20. Qxa4  3,0  20. Qxa4  3,0  20. Qxa4  3,0  20. Qxa4  3,0
        15 21. Qb3  1,0   21. Qb3  1,0   21. Qb3  1,0   21. Qb3  1,0   21. Qb3  1,0   21. Qb3  1,0
        16 22. b4   4,0   22. b4   4,0   22. b4   4,0   22. b4   4,0   22. b4   4,0   22. b4   4,0
        17 23. d6   1,3  23. dxe6  5,0  23. dxe6  5,0   23. d6   1,3   23. d6   1,3   23. d6   1,3
        18 24. Rc4  0,0   24. Rb1  0,0  24. dxe6  4,0  24. dxe6  4,0  24. dxe6  4,0  24. dxe6  4,0
        1925. exf7+ 5,0  25. exf7+ 5,0  25. exf7+ 5,0  25. exf7+ 5,0  25. Rxd6  3,2  25. Rxd6  3,2
        2026. Rc8+  4,0  26. Rc8+  4,0  26. Rc8+  4,0  26. Rc8+  4,0  26. Rc8+  4,0  26. Rc8+  4,0
        2127. Rxh8  1,0  27. Rxh8  1,0  27. Qc7+  2,0  27. Qc7+  2,0  27. Qc7+  2,0  27. Qc7+  2,0
        2228. Bg4+  4,0  28. Bg4+  4,0  28. Bc4+  2,0  28. Bc4+  2,0  28. Rxh8  4,0  28. Rxh8  4,0
        2329. Bxf5+ 3,0  29. Bxf5+ 3,0  29. Bxf5+ 3,0  29. Bxf5+ 3,0  29. Bxf5+ 3,0  29. Bxf5+ 3,0
        2430. Qc5+  3,0  30. Qc5+  3,0  30. Qc5+  3,0  30. Qc5+  3,0  30. Qc5+  3,0  30. Qc5+  3,0
Total        80     50,1           55,4           54,6           52,7           51,5           51,5
Percentage         62,63%         69,25%         68,25%         65,88%         64,38%         64,38%
Elo         3000    1879           2078           2048           1976           1931           1931

Game #2
         1 6… Nxd4  0,0   6. … e5  2,5   6. … e5  2,5   6. … e5  2,5   6. … e5  2,5   6. … e5  2,5
         27. … Be6  1,0  7. … Be6  1,0  7. … Be7  1,3  7. … Be7  1,3  7. … Be7  1,3  7. … Be7  1,3
         38. … Qxd5 2,2  8. … Qxd5 2,2  8. … Qxd5 2,2  8. … Qxd5 2,2  8. … Qxd5 2,2  8. … Qxd5 2,2
         49. … Be7  2,8  9. … Be7  2,8  9. … Be7  2,8  9. … Be6  4,0  9. … Be6  4,0  9. … Be6  4,0
         5 10… Nf4  0,0  10. … Nf6 3,1  10. … Nf6 3,1  10. … Nf6 3,1  10. … Nf6 3,1  10. … Nf6 3,1
         611. … Nf4 1,7  11. … Nf4 1,7  11. … Nf4 1,7  11. … Nf4 1,7  11. … Nf4 1,7  11. … Nf4 1,7
         712. … 0-0 4,0  12. … Qc7 1,1  12. … 0-0 4,0  12. … 0-0 4,0  12. … Qc7 1,1  12. … Qc7 1,1
         813. … f5  4,0  13. … f5  4,0  13. … f5  4,0  13. … f5  4,0  13. … f5  4,0  13. … f5  4,0
         914. … Bxc 1,0  14. … Qd7 3,6  14. … Qd7 3,6  14. … Qd7 3,6  14. … Bxc 1,0  14. … Qd7 3,6
        1015. … Qxe 1,0  15. … Qxe 1,0  15. … Qxe 1,0  15. … Qxe 1,0  15. … Qxe 1,0  15. … Qxe 1,0
        1116. … f4  0,0  16. … f4  0,0  16. … f4  0,0  16. … f4  0,0  16. … f4  0,0  16. … f4  0,0
        1217. … Be5 4,0  17. … Be5 4,0  17. … f4  0,0  17. … f4  0,0  17. … f4  0,0  17. … f4  0,0
        1318. … Rf7 1,0  18. … Rf7 1,0  18. … Rf7 1,0  18. … Rf7 1,0  18. … Rf7 1,0  18. … Rf7 1,0
        1419. … Qf6 2,9  19. … Qf6 2,9  19. … Qf6 2,9  19. … Qf6 2,9  19. … Qf6 2,9  19. … Qf6 2,9
        1520. … Nxb 0,0  20. … Nxb 0,0  20. … Nxb 0,0  20. … Qf6 4,0  20. … Qe7 2,0  20. … Qe7 2,0
        1621. … Be5 4,0  21. … Be5 4,0  21. … Be5 4,0  21. … Be5 4,0  21. … Be5 4,0  21. … Be5 4,0
        1722. … Bxc 0,0  22. … Bxc 0,0  22. … Bxc 0,0  22. … Bxc 0,0  22. … Bxc 0,0  22. … Bxc 0,0
        1823. … fxg 0,0  23. … fxg 0,0  23. … fxg 0,0  23. … Bxc 0,0  23. … Bxc 0,0  23. … Bxc 0,0
        1924. … exf 4,0  24. … exf 4,0  24. … exf 4,0  24. … exf 4,0  24. … exf 4,0  24. … exf 4,0
        2025. … Rxf 3,0  25. … Rxf 3,0  25. … Rxf 3,0  25. … Rxf 3,0  25. … Rxf 3,0  25. … Rxf 3,0
        2126. … fxg 3,0  26. … fxg 3,0  26. … fxg 3,0  26. … fxg 3,0  26. … fxg 3,0  26. … fxg 3,0
        2227. … gxh 2,0  27. … gxh 2,0  27. … gxh 2,0  27. … gxh 2,0  27. … gxh 2,0  27. … gxh 2,0
        2328. … Qg6 1,0  28. … h1Q 3,0  28. … h1Q 3,0  28. … h1Q 3,0  28. … h1Q 3,0  28. … Qg6 1,0
Total        80     42,6           49,9           49,1           54,3           46,8           47,4
Percentage         53,25%         62,38%         61,38%         67,88%         58,50%         59,25%
Elo         3000    1598           1871           1841           2036           1755           1778

Game #3
         110. … Bd7 3,5  10. … Bd7 3,5  10. … Bd7 3,5  10. … Bd7 3,5  10. … Bd7 3,5  10. … Bd7 3,5
         211. … Bd7 3,8  11. … Bd7 3,8  11. … Bd7 3,8  11. … Bd7 3,8  11. … Bd7 3,8  11. … Qc7 0,0
         312. … Ne5 3,5  12. … Ne5 3,5  12. … Ne5 3,5  12. … Ne5 3,5  12. … Ne5 3,5  12. … Ne5 3,5
         413. … Qc8 3,5  13. … Qc8 3,5  13. … Qc8 3,5  13. … Qc8 3,5  13. … Qc8 3,5  13. … Qc8 3,5
         514. … Qxc 3,1  14. … Qxc 3,1  14. … Qxc 3,1  14. … Qxc 3,1  14. … Qxc 3,1  14. … Qxc 3,1
         615. … Qc7 1,4  15. … Ng4 1,2  15. … Qc7 1,4  15. … Qc7 1,4  15. … Qc7 1,4  15. … Ng4 1,2
         716. … Qc4 1,4  16. … Ng4 0,0  16. … Ng4 0,0  16. … Ng4 0,0  16. … Ng4 0,0  16. … Ng4 0,0
         817. … Qc4 4,0  17. … Qc4 4,0  17. … Qc4 4,0  17. … Qc4 4,0  17. … Qc4 4,0  17. … Qc4 4,0
         918. … Rac 3,8  18. … Rac 3,8  18. … Rac 3,8  18. … Rac 3,8  18. … Rac 3,8  18. … Rac 3,8
        1019. … Nd7 0,0  19. … Qa6 0,0  19. … Qa6 0,0  19. … Bd7 0,0  19. … Bd7 0,0  19. … Bd7 0,0
        1120. … Qa4 2,4  20. … Qa4 2,4  20. … Qa4 2,4  20. … Qa4 2,4  20. … Qa4 2,4  20. … Qa4 2,4
        1221. … Nc4 4,0  21. … Nc4 4,0  21. … Nc4 4,0  21. … Nc4 4,0  21. … Nc4 4,0  21. … Nc4 4,0
        1322. … Bc2 3,8  22. … Bc2 3,8  22. … Bc2 3,8  22. … Bc2 3,8  22. … Bc2 3,8  22. … Bc2 3,8
        1423. … Bxd 4,0  23. … Bxd 4,0  23. … Bxd 4,0  23. … Nxf 3,4  23. … Nxf 3,4  23. … Nxf 3,4
        1524. … Qxb 3,1  24. … Nd7 1,0  24. … Nd7 1,0  24. ...Ra 4,0  24. ...Ra 4,0  24. ...Ra 4,0
        1625. … Qxb 3,0  25. … Qxb 3,0  25. … Qxb 3,0  25. … Qxb 3,0  25. … Qxb 3,0  25. … Qxb 3,0
        1726. … Qc3 0,0  26. … Qb6 1,7  26. … Nc4 1,1  26. … Nc4 1,1  26. … Nc4 1,1  26. … Nc4 1,1
        1827. … Qb6 3,5  27. … Qb6 3,5  27. … Qb6 3,5  27. … Qb6 3,5  27. … Qb6 3,5  27. … Qb6 3,5
        1928. … Rc3 3,5  28. … Rc3 3,5  28. … Rc3 3,5  28. … Rc3 3,5  28. … Rc3 3,5  28. … Rc3 3,5
        2029. … R8c 1,1  29. … R8c 1,1  29. … f5  1,0  29. … f5  1,0  29. … f5  1,0  29. … f5  1,0
        2130. … Qxb 1,0  30. … Qf2 3,5  30. … Qf2 3,5  30. … Qf2 3,5  30. … Qf2 3,5  30. … Qf2 3,5
Total        80     57,4           57,9           57,4           59,8           59,8           55,8
Percentage         71,75%         72,38%         71,75%         74,75%         74,75%         69,75%
Elo         3000    2153           2171           2153           2243           2243           2093

Game #4
         1 16. Bd3  3,4   16. Re2  2,3   16. Re2  2,3   16. Bd3  3,4   16. Bd3  3,4   16. Bd3  3,4
         2 17. Nd5  4,0   17. Nf5  1,9   17. Nf5  1,9   17. Nf5  1,9   17. Nf5  1,9   17. Nd5  4,0
         3 18. Bc2  1,0   18. Bc2  1,0   18. Bc2  1,0   18. Bc2  1,0   18. Bc2  1,0   18. Bc2  1,0
         419. Bxc6  2,1  19. Bxc6  2,1  19. Bxc6  2,1  19. Bxc6  2,1  19. Bxc6  2,1  19. Bxc6  2,1
         5 20. d5   1,8   20. Nd5  0,0   20. Nd5  0,0   20. Nd5  0,0   20. Nd5  0,0   20. Nd5  0,0
         6 21. Bg5  4,0   21. Bg5  4,0   21. Bg5  4,0   21. Bg5  4,0   21. Bg5  4,0   21. Bg5  4,0
         7 22. Qb3  2,9   22. d5   0,0   22. Qd3  3,4   22. Rc1  2,9   22. Rc1  2,9   22. Rc1  2,9
         8 23. Qb3  2,4   23. Qd3  3,3   23. Qd3  3,3   23. d5   4,0   23. Qd3  3,3   23. Qd3  3,3
         9 24. d5   3,7  24. Ref1  1,5   24. d5   3,7   24. d5   3,7   24. d5   3,7   24. d5   3,7
        10 25. Nd5  4,0   25. Nd5  4,0   25. Nd5  4,0   25. Nd5  4,0   25. Nd5  4,0   25. Nd5  4,0
        11 26. Qc4  1,6   26. Qc4  1,6   26. Qc4  1,6   26. Qc4  1,6   26. Qc4  1,6   26. Qc4  1,6
        1227. Ref1  1,7   27. a5   3,7   27. a5   3,7   27. Qc4  0,0   27. Qc4  0,0   27. Qc4  0,0
        1328. Nxb4  1,6  28. Nxb4  1,6  28. Nxb4  1,6  28. Nxb4  1,6  28. Nxb4  1,6  28. Nxb4  1,6
        1429. Rec1  0,0  29. Rec1  0,0  29. Rec1  0,0  29. Rec1  0,0  29. Rec1  0,0   29. Qa3  0,0
        15 30. Qa3  0,0   30. Qa3  0,0  30. Rec1  4,0  30. Rec1  4,0  30. Rec1  4,0  30. Rec1  4,0
        1631. Nxe5  4,0  31. Nxe5  4,0  31. Nxe5  4,0  31. Nxe5  4,0  31. Nxe5  4,0  31. Nxe5  4,0
        17 32. b4   0,0   32. b4   0,0   32. b4   0,0   32. b4   0,0   32. b4   0,0   32. b4   0,0
        1833. Rxb8  4,0  33. Rxb8  4,0  33. Rxb8  4,0  33. Rxb8  4,0  33. Rxb8  4,0  33. Rxb8  4,0
        1934. Qxa6  4,0  34. Qxa6  4,0  34. Qxa6  4,0  34. Qxa6  4,0  34. Qxa6  4,0  34. Qxa6  4,0
        20 35. Rc8  4,0   35. Rc8  4,0   35. Rc8  4,0   35. Rc8  4,0   35. Rc8  4,0   35. Rc8  4,0
Total        80     50,2           43,0           52,6           50,2           49,5           51,6
Percentage         62,75%         53,75%         65,75%         62,75%         61,88%         64,50%
Elo         3000    1883           1613           1973           1883           1856           1935

Game #5
         113. … e5  1,5  13. … e5  1,5  13. … Qc7 1,.7 13. … Qc7 1,.7 13. … e5  1,5  13. … e5  1,5
         214. … Qc7 3,0  14. … Nc6 2,5  14. … Nc6 2,5  14. … Nc6 2,5  14. … Qc7 3,0  14. … Qc7 3,0
         315. … Qc7 1,5  15. … Nc6 3,0  15. … Qc7 1,5  15. … Qc7 1,5  15. … Qc7 1,5  15. … e5  0,0
         416. … Ng4 1,9  16. … Nxd 3,0  16. … Nxd 3,0  16. … Nxd 3,0  16. … Bh3 1,0  16. … Bh3 1,0
         517. … Nd4 2,6  17. … Ne5 3,0  17. … Ne5 3,0  17. … Ne5 3,0  17. … Ne5 3,0  17. … Ne5 3,0
         618. … Qc7 2,7  18. … Qc7 2,7  18. … Qc7 2,7  18. … Qc7 2,7  18. … Qc7 2,7  18. … Qc7 2,7
         719. … Qf5 0,0  19. … Nxc 3,0  19. … Nxc 3,0  19. … Nxc 3,0  19. … Nxc 3,0  19. … Nxc 3,0
         820. … Qc7 1,0  20. … Nxc 3,0  20. … Nxc 3,0  20. … Nxc 3,0  20. … Nxc 3,0  20. … Nxc 3,0
         921. … Bxb 3,0  21. … Bxb 3,0  21. … Bxb 3,0  21. … Bxb 3,0  21. … Bxb 3,0  21. … Bxb 3,0
        1022. … Qg4 1,3  22. … Qg4 1,3  22. … Qg4 1,3  22. … Rxb 3,0  22. … Rxb 3,0  22. … Rxb 3,0
        1123. … Qf5 1,9  23. … e6  2,2  23. … e6  2,2  23. … e6  2,2  23. … e6  2,2  23. … e6  2,2
        1224. … Rb8 3,0  24. … Rb8 3,0  24. … e6  0,0  24. … e6  0,0  24. … e6  0,0  24. … e6  0,0
        1325. … e5  1,7  25. … Qd7 1,7  25. … Qd7 1,7  25. … e5  1,7  25. … e5  1,7  25. … e5  1,7
        1426. … Qd7 2,6  26. … Qd7 2,6  26. … Qd7 2,6  26. … Qd7 2,6  26. … Qd7 2,6  26. … Qd7 2,6
        1527. … e5  0,0  27. … e5  0,0  27. … Qe5 3,0  27. … Qe5 3,0  27. … Qe5 3,0  27. … Qe5 3,0
        1628. … Rxb 2,0  28. … Rxb 2,0  28. … Rxb 2,0  28. … Rxb 2,0  28. … Rxb 2,0  28. … Rxb 2,0
        1729. … Qd4 1,1  29. … Qc3 3,0  29. … e6  0,0  29. … Kg7 1,1  29. … Kg7 1,1  29. … Kg7 1,1
        1830. … a3  2,0  30. … a3  2,0  30. … a3  2,0  30. … a3  2,0  30. … a3  2,0  30. … a3  2,0
        1931. … Qd4 2,2  31. … e6  1,8  31. … Qb2 3,0  31. … Qb2 3,0  31. … Qb2 3,0  31. … Qb2 3,0
        2032. … Qb2 1,9  32. … Kg7 0,0  32. … Kg7 0,0  32. … Kg7 0,0  32. … Kg7 0,0  32. … Kg7 0,0
        2133. … Qd4 0,0  33. … Qd4 0,0  33. … Qd4 0,0  33. … Qd4 0,0  33. … Qd4 0,0  33. … Qd4 0,0
        2234. … gxh 2,0  34. … gxh 2,0  34. … gxh 2,0  34. … gxh 2,0  34. … gxh 2,0  34. … gxh 2,0
        2335. … e6  1,0  35. … e6  1,0  35. … Qa1 2,6  35. … e6  1,0  35. … e6  1,0  35. … e6  1,0
        2436. … Qg3 0,0  36. … Qg3 0,0  36. … Qh2 3,0  36. … Qh2 3,0  36. … Qh2 3,0  36. … Qh2 3,0
        2537. … Qg5 1,1  37. … Qg5 1,1  37. … Qg5 1,1  37. … Qg5 1,1  37. … Qg5 1,1  37. … Qg5 1,1
        2638. … Qg3 0,0  38. … Qg3 0,0  38. … Qg3 0,0  38. … Qg3 0,0  38. … Qg3 0,0  38. … Kf7 2,6
        2739. … Qh2 0,0  39. … Qh2 0,0  39. … Qh2 0,0  39. … Qh2 0,0  39. … Qh2 0,0  39. … Qh2 0,0
        2840. … Qg7 1,0  40. … Qg7 1,0  40. … Qg7 1,0  40. … Qg7 1,0  40. … Qg7 1,0  40. … Qg7 1,0
Total        80     42,0           49,4           49,2           50,4           50,4           51,5
Percentage         52,50%         61,75%         61,50%         63,00%         63,00%         64,38%
Elo         3000    1575           1853           1845           1890           1890           1931

Game #6
         110. … Be6 3,0  10. … Be6 3,0  10. … Be6 3,0  10. … Be6 3,0  10. … Be6 3,0  10. … Be6 3,0
         211. … Bd7 2,0  11. … Bd7 2,0  11. … Bd7 2,0  11. … Bd7 2,0  11. … Bd7 2,0  11. … Bd7 2,0
         312. … Bd7 3,0  12. … Bd7 3,0  12. … Bd7 3,0  12. … Bxb 1,8  12. … Bxb 1,8  12. … Bd7 3,0
         413. … Qc7 1,3  13. … Qc7 1,3  13. … Qc7 1,3  13. … Qc7 1,3  13. … Qc7 1,3  13. … Qc7 1,3
         514. … Qb6 1,8  14. … Qb6 1,8  14. … Qb6 1,8  14. … Qb6 1,8  14. … Qb6 1,8  14. … Qb6 1,8
         615. … Bxf 4,0  15. … Bxf 4,0  15. … Bxf 4,0  15. Bxf6  2,6  15. … Bxf 4,0  15. … Qb6 4,0
         716. … Bh4 2,7  16. … Bh4 2,7  16. … Qb6 2,6  16. … Qb6 3,0  16. … Qb6 2,6  16. … Qb6 2,6
         817. … Qb6 2,1  17. … Bh4 2,4  17. … Rc8 3,0  17. … Rc8 2,7  17. … Rc8 3,0  17. … Rc8 3,0
         918. … Rfd 3,0  18. … Rfd 3,0  18. … b6  2,7  18. … b6  4,0  18. … b6  2,7  18. … b6  2,7
        1019. … d5  4,0  19. … d5  4,0  19. … d5  4,0  19. … d5  4,0  19. … d5  4,0  19. … d5  4,0
        1120. … Nxd 4,0  20. … Nxd 4,0  20. … Nxd 4,0  20. … Nxd 3,0  20. … Nxd 4,0  20. … Nxd 4,0
        1221. … Bxd 3,0  21. … Bxd 3,0  21. … Bxd 3,0  21. … Bxd 2,0  21. … Bxd 3,0  21. … Bxd 3,0
        1322. … Rxd 2,0  22. … Rxd 2,0  22. … Rxd 2,0  22. … Rxd 2,0  22. … Rxd 2,0  22. … Rxd 2,0
        1423. … Rxd 2,0  23. … Rxd 2,0  23. … Rxd 2,0  23. … Rxd 4,0  23. … Rxd 2,0  23. … Rxd 2,0
        1524. … Rxd 4,0  24. … Rxd 4,0  24. … Rxd 4,0  24. … Rxd 3,0  24. … Rxd 4,0  24. … Rxd 4,0
        1625. … e4  4,0  25. … e4  4,0  25. … Qc4 3,0  25. … Qc4 2,6  25. … Qc4 3,0  25. … Qc4 3,0
        1726. … e4  2,6  26. … e4  2,6  26. … e4  2,6  26. … e4  1,7  26. … e4  2,6  26. … Qb6 4,0
        1827. … e3  2,3  27. … e3  2,3  27. … Qf4 1,7  27. … Qf4 1,0  27. … Qf4 1,7  27. … e3  2,3
        1928. … Qc4 3,6  28. … Qc4 3,6  28. … Be5 1,0  28. … Be5 3,1  28. … Be5 1,0  28. … Be5 1,0
        2029. … Bf6 3,1  29. … Be5 4,0  29. … Bf6 3,1  29. … Bf6 4,0  29. … Bf6 3,1  29. … Be5 4,0
        2130. … Qf5 0,0  30. … Qf5 0,0  30. … Qc4 4,0  30. … Qc4 3,0  30. … Qf5 0,0  30. … Qxf 0,0
        2231. … Qd5 3,0  31. … Qd5 3,0  31. … Qd5 3,0  31. … Qd5 3,0  31. … Qd5 3,0  31. … Qd5 3,0
        2332. … Bd4 3,0  32. … Bd4 3,0  32. … Bd4 3,0  32. … Bd4 3,0  32. … Bd4 3,0  32. … Bd4 3,0
        2433. … Qh1 3,0  33. … Qh1 3,0  33. … Qh1 3,0  33. … Qh1+     33. … Qh1 3,0  33. … Qh1 3,0
Total        80     66,5           67,8           66,8           61,6           61,6           65,7
Percentage         83,17%         84,72%         83,50%         77,00%         77,00%         82,10%
Elo         3000    2495           2541           2505           2310           2310           2463

Game #7
         111. dxe5  1,5  11. dxe5  1,5  11. dxe5  1,5  11. dxe5  1,5  11. dxe5  1,5  11. dxe5  1,5
         212. dxe5  1,6  12. cxd6  3,4  12. cxd6  3,4  12. cxd6  3,4  12. cxd6  3,4  12. cxd6  3,4
         313. dxe5  3,0  13. dxe5  3,0  13. dxe5  3,0  13. dxe5  3,0  13. dxe5  3,0  13. dxe5  3,0
         414. dxe5  2,5  14. dxe5  2,5  14. dxe5  2,5  14. dxe5  2,5  14. dxe5  2,5  14. dxe5  2,5
         5 15. Ng5  1,2   15. Nd4  3,5   15. Nd4  3,5   15. Nd4  3,5   15. Ng5  1,2   15. Ng5  1,2
         6 16. e3   1,6   16. e4   3,5   16. e4   3,5   16. e4   3,5   16. e4   3,5   16. e4   3,5
         7 17. h3   3,5  17. Rfd1  3,5  17. Rfd1  3,5   17. f4   0,5  17. Rfd1  3,5  17. Rfd1  3,5
         818. Rcd1  1,6   18. Kh2  3,2   18. Kh2  3,2  18. Rcd1  1,6   18. f4   3,5  18. Rcd1  1,6
         9 19. Kh2  2,0   19. Kh2  2,0   19. Kh2  2,0   19. Kh2  2,0   19. Kh2  2,0   19. Kh2  2,0
        1020. Rcd1  2,4  20. Rcd1  2,4  20. Rcd1  2,4  20. Rcd1  2,4   20. e5   3,5   20. e5   3,5
        1121. … Ne2 0,0  21. … Ne2 0,0  21. Rcd1  3,5   21. Na4  3,4  21. … Ne4 0,0  21. … Ne4 0,0
        12 22. f5   2,9   22. Rd1  2,7   22. Rd1  2,7   22. Rd1  2,7   22. Rd1  2,7   22. Rd1  2,7
        13 23. Nb5  1,0   23. Ne4  3,2   23. Ne4  3,2   23. Ne4  3,2   23. Nb5  1,0   23. Na4  3,0
        14 24. Nc5  3,5   24. Nc5  3,5   24. Nc5  3,5   24. Nc5  3,5   24. Nc5  3,5   24. Nc5  3,5
        15 25. e6   3,5   25. e6   3,5   25. e6   3,5   25. e6   3,5   25. f6   2,6   25. f6   2,6
        16 26. Rd1  2,4   26. Rd1  2,4   26. Rd1  2,4   26. Rd1  2,4   26. Rd1  2,4   26. Rd1  2,4
        17 27. f6   0,0   27. f6   0,0   27. Bc3  2,0   27. Bc3  2,0   27. f6   0,0   27. f6   0,0
        1828. fxg6  3,5  28. fxg6  3,5  28. fxg6  3,5   28. Bh3  2,4   28. Bh3  2,4   28. Bh3  2,4
        19 19. Kg1  0,0   29. Be4  2,7   19. Qc1  0,0   29. Nf4  2,4   29. Nc5  3,5   29. Nc5  3,5
        2030. Qc4+  3,0  30. Qc4+  3,0  30. Qc4+  3,0  30. Qc4+  3,0  30. Qc4+  3,0  30. Qc4+  3,0
        2131. Nxg6  0,7  31. Nxg6  0,7  31. Nxg6  0,7  31. Nxg6  0,7  31. Nxg6  0,7  31. Nxg6  0,7
        2232. Rxd8  3,0  32. Rxd8  3,0  32. Rxd8  3,0  32. Rxd8  3,0  32. Rxd8  3,0  32. Rxd8  3,0
        23 33. Qd3  3,0   33. Qd3  3,0   33. Qd3  3,0   33. Qd3  3,0   33. Qd3  3,0   33. Qd3  3,0
        24 34. Bh3  1,0   34. Bh3  1,0   34. Bh3  1,0   34. Bh3  1,0   34. Nf4  2,5   34. Nf4  2,5
        2535. Bxe5  2,0  35. Bxe5  2,0  35. Bxe5  2,0  35. Bxe5  2,0  35. Bxe5  2,0  35. Bxe5  2,0
Total        80     50,3           62,6           65,5           62,1           59,8           60,0
Percentage         62,87%         78,29%         81,83%         77,60%         74,78%         75,00%
Elo         3000    1886           2349           2455           2328           2244           2250


          FIDELITY       FIDELITY       FIDELITY       FIDELITY       FIDELITY       FIDELITY
          Par Excellence Par Excellence Par Excellence Par Excellence Par Excellence Par Excellence
          SPRACKLEN      SPRACKLEN      SPRACKLEN      SPRACKLEN      SPRACKLEN      SPRACKLEN
          Lvl 6 - 60m/5' Lvl 7 - 60m/15'Lvl 8 - 60m/30'Lvl 9 - 60m/1h Lvl 10 - 30m/1hLvl 11 - 40m/2h
          6502 5Mhz      6502 5Mhz      6502 5Mhz      6502 5Mhz      6502 5Mhz      6502 5Mhz
Total        560   359,1          386,0          395,2          391,1          379,4          383,5
Percentage         64,13%         68,93%         70,56%         69,84%         67,75%         68,48%
Elo         3000    1924           2068           2117           2095           2033           2054
I'll send the spreadsheet to Nick for integration in his own.
Of course, nothing could replace real games and it would be interesting to play many games between different levels of the same chess computer.
Nevertheless, it is interesting to see that the strength does not fall dramatically with the faster levels, and also that (at least for Par Ex), the "standard" 30s/move level seems the optimum... At least it gives probably the best strength/time ration !

Best regards,
Alain
So with Par Ex 60/30 is a good setting.

Primus Optimus sends his regards...
Nick
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Post by Four.nine »

30 sec/move is an idea worth thinking about....but when I see a 10 MHz machine take out a 16 MHz machine, it just rubs me the wrong way.
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Post by spacious_mind »

Actually if you go to the last page:

http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php? ... &start=585

You will see tests where both Cougar and Explorer Pro were tested. We never completed all 7 tests but up to test game 6 their performances differed and overall consistently Explorer Pro performed better. Therefore regardless of what is stated at Schachcomputer.Info that they are identical seems to not pan out to what these tests showed. Therefore since I was not aware of your setting and probably used standard setting, I have to say that even standard setting has to differ and it could even be as a result of its play style perhaps being slightly changed in the standard setting.

I have never been a fan of lumping computer ratings together myself because it becomes hard to undo if you ever see that the original lumping together was not a wise decision.

Hard to undo... regards
Nick
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Post by Four.nine »

spacious_mind wrote:Actually if you go to the last page:

http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php? ... &start=585

You will see tests where both Cougar and Explorer Pro were tested. We never completed all 7 tests but up to test game 6 their performances differed and overall consistently Explorer Pro performed better. Therefore regardless of what is stated at Schachcomputer.Info that they are identical seems to not pan out to what these tests showed. Therefore since I was not aware of your setting and probably used standard setting, I have to say that even standard setting has to differ and it could even be as a result of its play style perhaps being slightly changed in the standard setting.

I have never been a fan of lumping computer ratings together myself because it becomes hard to undo if you ever see that the original lumping together was not a wise decision.

Hard to undo... regards

Wow! A brutal amount of info.
From what I saw, ExPro was way above Cougar on Test 1.
As to settings...Yes standard. For most of my home tournaments: standard.
Probably 6 months to a year ago, I learned of the "hidden" options. Now, whenever I pull out the ExPro it's only max strength (sel, tour).
And as to play style: seems to be exactly a Cougar...until late middle game/endgame and then the improvement kicks in.
Probably a little late to unlump ExPro and Cougar, but if people are looking at this thread than that info will get passed around.

PS the text editor in this forum page is killing me.
Four.nine
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Post by Four.nine »

Four.nine wrote:
spacious_mind wrote:Actually if you go to the last page:

http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php? ... &start=585

You will see tests where both Cougar and Explorer Pro were tested. We never completed all 7 tests but up to test game 6 their performances differed and overall consistently Explorer Pro performed better. Therefore regardless of what is stated at Schachcomputer.Info that they are identical seems to not pan out to what these tests showed. Therefore since I was not aware of your setting and probably used standard setting, I have to say that even standard setting has to differ and it could even be as a result of its play style perhaps being slightly changed in the standard setting.

I have never been a fan of lumping computer ratings together myself because it becomes hard to undo if you ever see that the original lumping together was not a wise decision.

Hard to undo... regards

Wow! A brutal amount of info.
From what I saw, ExPro was way above Cougar on Test 1.
As to settings...Yes standard. For most of my home tournaments: standard.
Probably 6 months to a year ago, I learned of the "hidden" options. Now, whenever I pull out the ExPro it's only max strength (sel, tour).
And as to play style: seems to be exactly a Cougar...until late middle game/endgame and then the improvement kicks in.
Probably a little late to unlump ExPro and Cougar, but if people are looking at this thread than that info will get passed around.

PS the text editor in this forum page is killing me.
I was overwhelmed by the info, but I went back in and looked game by game:

If you take the results of 6 test games for ExPto vs Cougar, as Wins and losses:

ExPro has 3W 2D 1L.
Has the feel of the 20 game match that I ran!
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Post by spacious_mind »

Well you can also add it up this way Explorer Pro performed on average over 6 games 31 ELO Better. I also added RS2250XL

Game 1
5 - SAITEK - EXPLORER PRO - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 16 MHZ - 66.4 - 83.00% - 2490
26 - SAITEK - COUGAR - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 16 MHZ - 63.1 - 78.88% - 2366

Game 2
19 - SAITEK - EXPLORER PRO - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 16 MHZ - 45.2 - 56.50% - 1695
20 - SAITEK - COUGAR - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 16 MHZ - 45.2 - 56.50% - 1695

Game 3
5 - SAITEK - EXPLORER PRO - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 16 MHZ - 62.2 - 77.75% - 2333
6 - SAITEK - COUGAR - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 16 MHZ - 62.2 - 77.75% - 2333

Game 4
7 - SAITEK - COUGAR - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 16 MHZ - 59.6 - 74.50% - 2235
14 - SAITEK - EXPLORER PRO - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 16 MHZ - 57.5 - 71.88% - 2156

Game 5
4 - SAITEK - EXPLORER PRO - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 16 MHZ - 65.7 - 82.13% - 2464
12 - SAITEK - COUGAR - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 16 MHZ - 63.2 - 79.00% - 2370

Game 6
11 - SAITEK - EXPLORER PRO - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 16 MHZ - 65.7 - 82.15% - 2465
17 - SAITEK - COUGAR - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 16 MHZ - 64.4 - 80.50% - 2415

AVERAGE FINAL TEST RATING 6 GAMES:

Saitek Explorer Pro = 2267 ELO
Saitek Cougar = 2236 ELO

RadioShack 2250XL Tests:

Game 1
11 - RADIOSHACK - 2250XL - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – BRUTE FORCE - H8 10 MHZ - 65.4 - 81.75% - 2453
51 - RADIOSHACK - 2250XL - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 10 MHZ - 61.5 - 76.88% - 2306

Game 2
11 - RADIOSHACK - 2250XL - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 10 MHZ - 49.5 - 61.88% - 1856
22 - RADIOSHACK - 2250XL - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – BRUTE FORCE - H8 10 MHZ - 44.0 - 55.00% - 1650

Game 3
4 - RADIOSHACK - 2250XL - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – BRUTE FORCE - H8 10 MHZ - 62.3 - 77.88% - 2336
18 - RADIOSHACK - 2250XL - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 10 MHZ - 58.5 - 73.13% - 2194

Game 4
12 - RADIOSHACK - 2250XL - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 10 MHZ - 58.4 - 73.00% - 2190
17 - RADIOSHACK - 2250XL - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – BRUTE FORCE - H8 10 MHZ - 56.2 - 70.25% - 2108

Game 5
15 - RADIOSHACK - 2250XL - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – BRUTE FORCE - H8 10 MHZ - 61.4 - 76.75% - 2303
17 - RADIOSHACK - 2250XL - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 10 MHZ - 60.3 - 75.38% - 2261

Game 6
12 - RADIOSHACK - 2250XL - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – BRUTE FORCE - H8 10 MHZ - 64.6 - 80.73% - 2422
19 - RADIOSHACK - 2250XL - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 10 MHZ - 62.9 - 78.63% - 2359

Game 7
10 - RADIOSHACK - 2250XL - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – SELECTIVE - H8 10 MHZ - 58.9 - 73.63% - 2209
17 - RADIOSHACK - 2250XL - FRANS MORSCH - 30S AVERAGE – BRUTE FORCE - H8 10 MHZ - 52.9 - 66.13% - 1984

RS2250 6 Game Average
Brute Force = 2212 ELO
Selective = 2194 ELO

RS2250 7 Game Average
Brute Force = 2179
Selective = 2196

Brute Force performed better in 4 Test games and Selective in 3 Test Games

If you take the first 6 games that all 3 played it looks like this:

Explorer Pro = 2267 ELO
Cougar = 2236 ELO
RS2250XL Brute = 2212 ELO
RS2250XL Selective = 2194 ELO

Cougar is better by 24 ELO than RS2250XL. Explorer Pro is better than RS2250XL by 55 ELO and that is substantial !!

With RS2250XL it is hit and miss which setting is better between Brute Force and Selective but overall I would still go for Brute Force. If for no other reason than it gives a different game experience to Selective which would be the same as all the other clones like Cosmos etc.

Regards
Nick
Four.nine
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Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:30 pm

Post by Four.nine »

31 ELO better? That's what I just wrote down on a piece of junk mail envelope that I used to scribble the numbers!
Excellent.
Your post is exactly what
I was looking for: a summary.

Yup:

ExPro is better than Cougar is better than RS.

You've already shown that. My 20 game matches are reproducing info you have already generated.

Good work: both of us!
Four.nine
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Posts: 911
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Post by Four.nine »

Final note:

The 55 point ELO advantage: with ExPro Brute/Full.
Change ExPro to selective/tournament and it would be a lot worse.
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

Four.nine wrote:Final note:

The 55 point ELO advantage: with ExPro Brute/Full.
Change ExPro to selective/tournament and it would be a lot worse.
Ok so next steps, you will have to start a petition, make some signs and walk up and down the street outside the Schachcomputer White House demanding a Brexit for Ex Pro! :P

Regards
Nick
Four.nine
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Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:30 pm

Post by Four.nine »

spacious_mind wrote:
Four.nine wrote:Final note:

The 55 point ELO advantage: with ExPro Brute/Full.
Change ExPro to selective/tournament and it would be a lot worse.
Ok so next steps, you will have to start a petition, make some signs and walk up and down the street outside the Schachcomputer White House demanding a Brexit for Ex Pro! :P

Regards
My next steps are to drop the time spent on table top chess computer ratings and start working the major problem that we all have.......in our White House.
Four.nine
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Post by Four.nine »

Game 14: Reversed Colors Game 4. A draw until RS goes pawn grabbing. ExPro: miserable finish, but a win is a win.

[Event "EPMS-2250"]
[Black "EPMS"]
[Date "Feb 3, 2018"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Round "14"]
[White "2250"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.d3 Bb4 5.Nf3 d6 6.O-O Bxc3 7.bxc3 Na5 8.Bb3 Nxb3 9.axb3 O-O 10.Bg5 Bg4 11.c4 a6 12.c3 Qe7 13.b4 Rad8 14.Qe2 Rfe8 15.Rfe1 c6 16.Ra3 Rd7 17.h3 Bh5 18.Rea1 d5 19.exd5 cxd5 20.cxd5 Rxd5 21.Ra5 Qd7 22.Bxf6 Bxf3 23.gxf3 Rxa5 24.Rxa5 gxf6 25.Kg2 Rd8 26.Qe4 Qxd3 27.Qxb7 Kh8 28.Qxa6 Rg8+ 29.Kh2 Qxf3 30.Qf1 Qxc3 31.Ra4 Qd4 32.Kh1 Rb8 33.Qe1 Qd7 34.Ra3 Qb7+ 35.Kh2 Qxb4 36.Qxb4 Rxb4 37.Ra7 Kg7 38.Re7 Rb3 39.Re8 h6 40.h4 Kg6 41.Re7 Rb5 42.Kg3 f5 43.Kf3 f6 44.Re8 Rb4 45.Rg8+ Kf7 46.Rc8 Rxh4 47.Rh8 Kg6 48.Ke2 Re4+ 49.Kf3 h5 50.Rg8+ Kf7 51.Rh8 h4 52.Rc8 Rb4 53.Kg2 Kg6 54.Kh3 Rb2 55.Rg8+ Kh5 56.Rh8+ Kg5 57.Kg2 e4 58.Rg8+ Kf4 59.Rh8 Kg4 60.Rg8+ Kh5 61.Rh8+ Kg6 62.Rxh4 Kg5 63.Rh1 f4 64.Rg1 Kg4 65.Re1 e3 66.Rf1 Rd2 67.Ra1 f3+ 68.Kg1 Rxf2 69.Ra8 Rg2+ 70.Kh1 e2 71.Rg8+ Kf4 72.Re8 Kg3 73.Rg8+ Kf2 74.Re8 Rg4 75.Rh8 e1=Q+ 76.Kh2 Qg1+ 77.Kh3 Qg2# 0-1

C28n: Vienna: 3. Bc4 Nc6 4. d3 Bb4 in book for 9 full moves; varies from Game 4, because ExPro played the book move 8. .. Nxb3 (RS in Game 4 calculated non-book 8. .. Bd7). A 100% draw until RS grabby 27. Qxb7?? GAME OVER. In one single move ExPro crushes White: 27. .. Qg6+ (27. .. Qg6! Kh2 Qc2! f4 e4 Qa7 Rd2 Kg2 Qd3! Ra1 e3). ExPro prefers the 50 move turd version, therefore 27. .. Kh8??????????
ExPro 11-3 (!) has already won the match in 14 games. 6 more to go (sorry RS2250XL supporters).

Game 15: Reversed Colors Game 5. RS calculates its best game and wins.

[Event "2250-EPMS match"]
[Black "2250
[Date "Jan 31, 2018"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Round "15"]
[White "EPMS"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 b6 4.a3 d5 5.Nc3 Be7 6.e3 O-O 7.Bd3 c5 8.cxd5 exd5 9.O-O Re8 10.Bb5 Bd7 11.Bxd7 Qxd7 12.Qd2 Nc6 13.Rd1 c4 14.Ne5 Qc7 15.Nxc6 Qxc6 16.Rb1 Bd6 17.a4 Re6 18.b3 cxb3 19.Rxb3 Qc7 20.g3 Qc4 21.Qa2 Bb4 22.Bb2 Bxc3 23.Bxc3 Ne4 24.Rc1 Rae8 25.Qa3 Rc6 26.Qa2 Rec8 27.a5 bxa5 28.Qb2 a4 29.Ra3 Nxc3 30.Raxc3 Qxc3 31.Rxc3 Rxc3 32.Qb5 a3 33.Qa5 h5 34.Kg2 R8c7 35.h4 g6 36.Kf3 R7c6 37.Kg2 Rc2 38.Qxa3 Rf6 39.Qxa7 Rfxf2+ 40.Kg1 Rfd2 41.Qa1 Rg2+ 42.Kf1 Rh2 43.Kg1 Rcg2+ 44.Kf1 Ra2 45.Qxa2 Rxa2 0-1

E12d: Queen’s Indian: Petrosian in book for 7 full moves. First, I found Game 5 notation contained transposed moves (Black was actually 4. .. d5 5. .. Bb7). In this game RS calculates 5. .. Be7 (also book) and the game changes completely (EP calculated reasonable looking 5. .. Bd6 in Game 5). Weak moves by ExPro and subsequent claustrophobic Queenside gave RS a -5.3 lead after ExPro 27. a5? (f3). But, RS blows it with 29. .. NxB? (Eval lead falls to -1.7); RS apparently calculated an advantage of Q for 2R trade. However, looks like RS calculated correctly as both Rooks ended up on the 2nd rank at move 40 and ExPro was dead.
ExPro leads 11-4 after 15.
Four.nine
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Post by Four.nine »

Game 16: Reversed Colors Game 6. RS is OK for about 25 moves, then starts to flounder. ExPro calculates a daring sacrifice combination and it works, 0-1.

[Event "2250-EPMS match"]
[Black "EPMS"]
[Date "Feb 6, 2018"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Round "16"]
[White "2250"]

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 Nf6 4.Nbd2 Nbd7 5.e3 c5 6.c3 cxd4 7.exd4 Nh5 8.Be3 Bd6 9.Bb5 O-O 10.O-O a6 11.Bd3 Nf4 12.Bc2 b5 13.a4 Rb8 14.g3 Ng6 15.axb5 Rxb5 16.b3 Qc7 17.Bd3 Rb6 18.c4 Rc6 19.Bxg6 hxg6 20.Qe2 a5 21.Rfc1 Ba6 22.h3 dxc4 23.bxc4 Nb6 24.Rxa5 Bxc4 25.Qe1 Bd5 26.Rxc6 Bxc6 27.Ne5 Bd5 28.Bf4 g5 29.Be3 Rb8 30.Qe2 f6 31.Nd3 Bxg3 32.fxg3 Qxg3+ 33.Kf1 Nc4 34.Nxc4 Bxc4 35.Ra1 Qxh3+ 36.Kg1 Rb3 37.Ra8+ Kh7 38.Qh2 Qxh2+ 39.Kxh2 Rxd3 40.Bf2 g4 41.Rc8 Bd5 42.Kg1 g3 43.Bxg3 Rxg3+ 0-1

D02n: Queen’s Pawn: London in book through White move 6: ExPro varies with 6. .. cxd4 vs RS book move Be7 in Game 6. RS moves 30. Qe2? (Ra1) and 31. Nd3 (Ng4) give ExPro the opportunity of the daring Bishop sac 31. .. Bxg3!! RS bites with 32. fxg3?? GAME OVER! That ExPro 31. .. Bxg3!! sac, while not completely sound, was one of the boldest chess computer sacrifices that I have witnessed.

Game 17: Reversed Colors Game 7. RS had chances in a B+4P vs N+4P endgame, but settled for a threepeat draw.

[Event "2250-EPMS match"]
[Black "2250"]
[Date "Feb 6, 2018"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Round "17"]
[White "EPMS"]

1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 c6 4.Qe2 Be7 5.Nf3 O-O 6.O-O b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.a4 b4 9.Bg5 Nbd7 10.Nbd2 Nc5 11.Rfe1 Nxb3 12.Nxb3 a5 13.d4 Ba6 14.Qd2 Qc7 15.Rad1 c5 16.dxc5 dxc5 17.Bxf6 Bxf6 18.Qd7 Rfc8 19.Qxc7 Rxc7 20.Rd5 Bc4 21.Rxc5 Rxc5 22.Nxc5 Rc8 23.Nd7 Ba6 24.Rc1 Bb7 25.c3 Be7 26.Ndxe5 Bxe4 27.Re1 Bxf3 28.gxf3 bxc3 29.bxc3 Ba3 30.Re3 f6 31.Nd7 Bb2 32.Kg2 Kf7 33.Nb6 Rxc3 34.Re2 Ba1 35.Re1 Ra3 36.Re4 Rd3 37.Nc4 Rd5 38.Ne3 Rc5 39.Kg3 Bc3 40.Rc4 Rxc4 41.Nxc4 Ke6 42.h3 g6 43.Ne3 Be5+ 44.f4 Bc7 45.Kg4 h5+ 46.Kf3 f5 47.Ng2 Bb6 48.Ne3 Bd8 49.Ke2 Bc7 50.Nc4 Kd5 51.Kd3 h4 52.f3 Kc5 53.Kc3 Kd5 54.Kd3 Kc5 55.Kc3 Kd5 56.Kd3 1/2-1/2

C24: Bishop’s Opening: Paulsen in book through White move 6: Not exactly the reverse of Game 7, but close enough. First: ExPro “don’t play” 2. Bc4, so I had to force that. Then, RS “don’t play” 2. .. Bc5. Well, it is...what it is. And it was a very evenly played draw. Missteps by ExPro late in the game (42. h3? and 48. Ne3?) give RS chances, but RS is not StockFish; Drawn.

Game 18: Reversed Colors Game 8. ExPro is on its way to a win, when RS calculates a crazy Queen sac and draws!

[Event "EPMS-2250"]
[Black "EPMS"]
[Date "Feb 6, 2018"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Round "18"]
[White "2250"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.d3 Bb4 5.Nf3 d6 6.O-O Bxc3 7.bxc3 Na5 8.Bb3 Nxb3 9.axb3 O-O 10.Bb2 Bg4 11.c4 Qe7 12.Re1 a6 13.c5 Rfc8 14.cxd6 cxd6 15.c3 b6 16.h3 Bh5 17.b4 a5 18.bxa5 bxa5 19.g4 Rcb8 20.Ba3 Bg6 21.Nh4 Qc7 22.Qc2 Rc8 23.Rec1 Rcb8 24.Ra2 h5 25.Qe2 Rb3 26.Bb2 Qd7 27.Nxg6 fxg6 28.f3 Rab8 29.c4 a4 30.Kh2 Qb7 31.Ba3 Qc6 32.Rca1 Qb6 33.Rd1 Rf8 34.Bc1 Ra8 35.f4 exf4 36.Bxf4 Qd4 37.Kh1 a3 38.Be3 Qe5 39.Bf2 Rb2 40.Qxb2 Qxb2 41.Rxb2 axb2 42.Bd4 Rb8 43.Rb1 Rb3 44.Rxb2 Rxd3 45.Bxf6 gxf6 46.Kg2 hxg4 47.hxg4 Re3 48.Rb6 Kf7 49.Rc6 Rxe4 50.Kf3 f5 51.gxf5 gxf5 52.c5 dxc5 53.Rc7+ Kf6 54.Rxc5 Rb4 55.Rc8 f4 56.Rf8+ Kg5 57.Rg8+ Kf5 58.Rf8+ Ke5 59.Re8+ Kd5 60.Rf8 Ke5 61.Re8+ Kf6 62.Rf8+ Kg5 63.Rg8+ Kh5 64.Rf8 Kg5 1/2-1/2

C28n: Vienna: 3. Bc4 Nc6 4. d3 Bb4 in book for 9 full moves. This game copied Game 14 (which ExPro won) through White move 11. ExPro, for whatever reason, transposes moves 11 and 12 from that Game 14...so this one is completely different. Essentially Drawn for 37 moves, RS makes mistakes at 38. Be3? (Kg2) and 39. Bf2? (Kg2 again). ExPro is intent on advancing that a3 pawn and calculates 39. .. Rb2. And RS “panics”: 40. Qxb2!??? ExPro has won with 39. .. axb2. But, now ExPro “panics” 40. .. Qxb2????? DRAW. ExPro couldn’t calculate far enough ahead (axb2! RxR+ Kh7 Rb8 Nxe4! Be1 Nc5 Ra3 Qe3 Rc3 Nxd3 Rxd3 Qxd3 Rxb2 Qe4+ Rg2 QxB).

18 games, ExPro leads 13-5.
May not get to last two games, until the weekend.
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