2250XL-ExPro match?

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Four.nine
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2250XL-ExPro match?

Post by Four.nine »

If there is interest, I will run a 20 game "reversed colors" match between a "default" turn on RS2250XL and an ExPro Max Strength (1 min/move).
Just post "Yes" .......and I would be interested in predictions, something like:
"RS: 11-9 or Ex 10.5-9.5"

"Lurkers of the world unite"
TracySMiller
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Post by TracySMiller »

Yes. Just to be clear, the ExPro will be playing with Max Strength, which is SEL SEARCH and Tournament Book, right? What are the default settings for the RS 2250XL? Are they BRUTE FORCE and Random Book, or something different?
Four.nine
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Post by Four.nine »

TracySMiller wrote:Yes. Just to be clear, the ExPro will be playing with Max Strength, which is SEL SEARCH and Tournament Book, right? What are the default settings for the RS 2250XL? Are they BRUTE FORCE and Random Book, or something different?
Correct on Ex.
RS book is actually called "Full" (or something similar as I recall)
As you probably know, RS only has Full book or none.
TracySMiller
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Post by TracySMiller »

OK. I predict ExpPro wins 12.5-7.5.
Reinfeld
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Post by Reinfeld »

A. Yes.

B.
As you probably know, RS only has Full book or none.
That's not correct. RS has four books (five if you count the no-book option): Passive, Active, Full and Tournament. Check the manual, p. 44.

So, under your conditions, if you run ExPro at "max strength," per the secret options you outlined elsewhere, it's the tournament book and selective search and random OFF, right?

Again per the manual, RS defaults to Full book + brute force search + random ON.

If so, it seems it wouldn't be quite fair to set up your match with RS at default and ExPro at max strength. For my money, the better test would be tournament books for both and random OFF for both. The brute force v selective for RS is a trickier question, since RS has graded out stronger in some scenarios with the brute force setting, but I would regard selective as a fair choice here.

C. Given the conditions described above, which are acceptable to 2250XL's legal representatives, my prediction would be

ExPro 10.5
RS 9.5

Even conditions regards,

- R.
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
Four.nine
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Post by Four.nine »

Reinfeld wrote:A. Yes.

B.
As you probably know, RS only has Full book or none.
That's not correct. RS has four books (five if you count the no-book option): Passive, Active, Full and Tournament. Check the manual, p. 44

- R.
Hi Rein:

Five options in the manual. But only full and none actually work.
It's a 2250 bug.
Can't tell you how I know that....it's somewhere in the literature.
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Post by Reinfeld »

Five options in the manual. But only full and none actually work.
It's a 2250 bug.
Shoot, you gotta do better than that. How would anyone *know* they don't work? Plus, you still have to turn random off and pick the search function.

- R.
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
Four.nine
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Post by Four.nine »

Reinfeld wrote:
Five options in the manual. But only full and none actually work.
It's a 2250 bug.
Shoot, you gotta do better than that. How would anyone *know* they don't work? Plus, you still have to turn random off and pick the search function.

- R.
It's right here...in black and white:

"Infos
1 Die Bibliotheken Turnier, Aktiv und Passiv sind zwar anwählbar, funktionieren aber nicht. Bei Anwahl spielt der Champion 2250XL ohne Bibliothek. Daher kann die Angabe zur Größe der Bibliothek nicht als gesichert angesehen werden."

Translation:
Der Radio Shaft buch: Tournament, active and passive, ist sehr upgefuggend.
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paulwise3
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Post by paulwise3 »

Four.nine wrote:
Reinfeld wrote:
Five options in the manual. But only full and none actually work.
It's a 2250 bug.
Shoot, you gotta do better than that. How would anyone *know* they don't work? Plus, you still have to turn random off and pick the search function.

- R.
It's right here...in black and white:

"Infos
1 Die Bibliotheken Turnier, Aktiv und Passiv sind zwar anwählbar, funktionieren aber nicht. Bei Anwahl spielt der Champion 2250XL ohne Bibliothek. Daher kann die Angabe zur Größe der Bibliothek nicht als gesichert angesehen werden."

Translation:
Der Radio Shaft buch: Tournament, active and passive, ist sehr upgefuggend.
If I translate that correct, it means that if you choose for instance the tournament book, it actually plays without book.
That should be easy to verify!?

Regards, Paul
2024 Special thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12741
2024 Special results and standings: https://schaakcomputers.nl/paul_w/Tourn ... 25_06.html
If I am mistaken, it must be caused by a horizon effect...
Four.nine
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Post by Four.nine »

paulwise3 wrote:
Four.nine wrote:
Reinfeld wrote:
Five options in the manual. But only full and none actually work.
It's a 2250 bug.
Shoot, you gotta do better than that. How would anyone *know* they don't work? Plus, you still have to turn random off and pick the search function.

- R.
It's right here...in black and white:

"Infos
1 Die Bibliotheken Turnier, Aktiv und Passiv sind zwar anwählbar, funktionieren aber nicht. Bei Anwahl spielt der Champion 2250XL ohne Bibliothek. Daher kann die Angabe zur Größe der Bibliothek nicht als gesichert angesehen werden."

Translation:
Der Radio Shaft buch: Tournament, active and passive, ist sehr upgefuggend.
If I translate that correct, it means that if you choose for instance the tournament book, it actually plays without book.
That should be easy to verify!?

Regards, Paul

Ja Voll, Mein Herr.

Now I remember. When I first tried to use the 2250 in a home tournament (way back) The unit WOULD accept Tournament Book selection, but when the game was started...it pondered on the very first move.
I just verified it about an hour ago.

So, since then...it's always been full book for the 2250: ALL RS2250XL.
It's a bug discovered long ago.
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

It has been a long time since I spent any time on RS2250XL. Regarding the book that could be true, I can't really remember. The very first Tournament I played in at Schachcomputer.Info was with RS2250XL. I played Brute Force and without book and I think the reason I played without book was because the full book I considered to be insufficient against computers that have tournament book setting thereby handicapping RS2250XL from the onset.

Anyway without book it played quite well beating Fidelity Master 2325 (Mach IV) and drawing a game against Saitek Risk 2500. It also beat Mephisto Portorose 68020 2.1/2 - 1/2 and Novag Turquoise before losing to Saitek Cosmos 24 MHz 3.1/2 to 1.1/2.

https://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/i ... chaft_2007

Subsequently my preference with RS2250XL was always to play Brute Force. Over the years however I did also compare it to the Gk2100 clones with Selective setting.

Once you turn on selective, RS2250XL does indeed become another Cosmos clone with same h-bug. (Can't say GK2100 as it and TC2100 don't have that bug.)

Regarding prediction, realistically speaking RS2500 should perform worse than Cougar since Cougar is 60% faster with same h-bug.

But then again you cannot neccessarily state the results from four.nine's earlier match are conclusive beyond doubt, either as there are plenty of examples over the years where a program lost 6.0 and after many games catches it all slowly back up.

You would have to obtain same result a couple of times perferably from different testers.

Regards
Nick
IvenGO
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Post by IvenGO »

I would bet at RS2250XL if there will be normal control like XXmin/game
Those XXsec/move I dont trust much personally... Proper time management is a valuable part of any chess computer's / engine's strength.
Four.nine
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Post by Four.nine »

Thank you to Nick for Brute Force blessing. Also: Maybe the uber performance of your 2250 in 2007 is the reason for the unrealistically high Elo rating continually foisted by Aktivschach.

Iven: each to his own. At one time, I used 60 min/game exclusively, but abandoned because in long, close games that ran into the time limit both computers made horrible time pressure moves that rendered the game useless.
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Post by IvenGO »

At the endgame they do horrible mistakes no matter of time control's type anyway :D

Im still prefer "official" 30/99 8)

As for Brute/Selective - 2nd one is always better - see rating list: there You'll find that every tested chess computer has reached higher performance with it :wink:

Good luck with this match and thanks for previous!
Four.nine
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Post by Four.nine »

RS2250XL- Explorer Pro Match​1/30/18
1 minute/move

Decided to run a Radio Shack 2250XL-ExPro Max Strength match: 20 games, the second 10 games will be reversed colors repeats of the initial 10 (unless the computers “decide” to do one or two on their own. at which point a typical GK2100 internal book opening will be chosen by...me).The fecund minds at Aktivschach have RS rated at 2058 and ExPro at 2056 at present. This means that there likely will be a 10-10 result. My prediction is 15-5 for ExProMS. If ExPro doesn’t get 14, I will be disappointed. If RS even draws, I will leave this chess forum... in shame...and a broken man. OK, a bit dramatic...but I WILL no longer post on this forum out of shame. I will also keep comments to a minimum: “Just the facts (and Aktivschach ratings derision), Ma’am”. Oh, and historically, I have made machines “prove” mate: not anymore. When the end is certain, I’m done...makes games much quicker.

Game 1: Oh my! How can that be: RS loses!

[Event "EPMS-2250 default match"]
[Black "EPMS"]
[Date "Jan 30, 2018"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Round "1"]
[White "RS2250 default"]

1.c4 c5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 Nc6 4.Nf3 d5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.Bg2 e6 7.O-O Be7 8.Qa4 O-O 9.Nxd5 exd5 10.d4 c4 11.e3 Bg4 12.Bd2 Bf6 13.Rac1 Re8 14.Rfd1 a6 15.Qc2 b5 16.h3 Bh5 17.a3 Ra7 18.Re1 Bg6 19.Qd1 Rae7 20.Nh2 Bf5 21.Bc3 Re6 22.Ng4 Be7 23.Nh2 a5 24.Qh5 Be4 25.Bxe4 Rxe4 26.Nf1 b4 27.axb4 axb4 28.Bd2 Re6 29.Ra1 Qd7 30.Qf5 Bf6 31.Red1 Ne7 32.Qg4 b3 33.Rdc1 Ng6 34.Bb4 Qb7 35.Bc5 Ra6 36.Rxa6 Qxa6 37.Nd2 Qa2 38.Ba3 Be7 39.Qd7 Kf8 40.Nf3 h6 41.Re1 Bxa3 42.bxa3 Ne7 43.Qa4 b2 44.Qc2 Rb8 45.Rb1 c3 46.Ne1 Qxa3 47.Kh2 Qb3 48.f3 Qxc2+ 49.Nxc2 Nc6 50.e4 Nb4 51.Na1 bxa1=B 52.Rxa1 Na2 53.exd5 Rb2+ 54.Kg1 0-1

A36d: English Symmetrical in book for 7 moves. Radio Shack was dead after 40. Nf3??

Game 2: Heavens to Betsy! How can that be, RS loses!

[Event "EP-2250 match"]
[Black "2250"]
[Date "Jan 30, 2018"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Round "2"]
[White "EPMS"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 Qb6 9.Nf3 f6 10.exf6 Nxf6 11.O-O Bd6 12.Re1 O-O 13.b3 Bd7 14.Bf4 Bb4 15.Bd2 Bxd2 16.Qxd2 Rac8 17.Rac1 Nb4 18.Rxc8 Rxc8 19.Bb1 Qd6 20.Nf4 a5 21.Ne5 Be8 22.Qe3 Nd7 23.Qh3 h6 24.Nxe6 Nc2 25.Qg4 g5 26.Qf5 Nxe5 27.Rxe5 Qa3 28.Re1 Qb4 29.Re2 Qa3 30.h3 Qe7 31.Bxc2 Qf7 32.Qxd5 Bd7 33.Bg6 Qxg6 34.Nd8+ Kf8 35.Qxd7 Rc1+ 36.Kh2 Kg8 37.Re8+ Qxe8 38.Qxe8+ Kh7 39.Qf7+ Kh8 40.Ne6 Rc7 41.Qxc7 a4 42.Qg7# 1-0

C06o: French: Tarrasch in book through White move 13. Radio Shack was dead after 25. .. g5?? (even after RS 24. .. Nc2??). OK, so I kept going... to let Explorer Pro have the satisfaction of mate against the Aktivschach higher rated, indomitable RS2250XL

Game 3: ExPro misses 2 wins and loses!

[Event "2250-EPMS match"]
[Black "EPMS"]
[Date "Jan 30, 2018"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Round "3"]
[White "2250"]

1.d4 d5 2.g3 Nd7 3.Bg2 Ngf6 4.Nf3 e6 5.Nbd2 c5 6.c3 Bd6 7.O-O O-O 8.Re1 cxd4 9.Nxd4 e5 10.Nc2 Nc5 11.Nb3 Be6 12.Bg5 Nce4 13.Bxe4 dxe4 14.Ne3 h6 15.Bxf6 gxf6 16.Qd2 f5 17.Red1 Be7 18.Qc2 Qc7 19.Nd5 Bxd5 20.Rxd5 Rfd8 21.Rad1 Rxd5 22.Rxd5 Rd8 23.Rxd8+ Bxd8 24.g4 Qd7 25.c4 Bh4 26.Qc1 f4 27.h3 f5 28.gxf5 Qxf5 29.Qf1 Kf7 30.Kh2 Qf6 31.Nd2 Bxf2 32.Nxe4 Bg3+ 33.Nxg3 fxg3+ 34.Kg2 Qxf1+ 35.Kxf1 h5 36.h4 Ke6 37.Kg2 Kf5 38.Kf3 e4+ 39.Kxg3 Ke5 40.b3 a6 41.e3 a5 42.c5 Kf5 43.Kh3 Ke5 44.Kg2 Kd5 45.Kg3 Kxc5 46.Kf4 Kb4 47.Kxe4 Ka3 48.Kd3 Kxa2 49.e4 Kxb3 50.e5 a4 51.e6 a3 52.e7 a2 53.e8=Q a1=Q 54.Qb5+ Ka3 55.Qa5+ Kb3 1-0

I don’t know what it is, looks like some kind of reversed semi-Slav. SF calls it D00a: Queen’s Pawn: 2. g3 (only 4 moves) and Radio Shack has it in internal book. ExPro has a win at 28. .. Qg7+, displays it, but then switches to Qxf5? A replay using SF shows Black wins against RS with 38. .. a5. The replay continues 39. e4+?? Ke6 Kxg3 Kd6 b3 Kc5 and Black wins.
RS2250XL wins one...and I may be saying Bye-Bye soon.
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