Cougar-ExPro match 1 min/move

This forum is for general discussions and questions, including Collectors Corner and anything to do with Computer chess.

Moderators: Harvey Williamson, Steve B, Watchman

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the fen tag before the upgrade.
Four.nine
Full Member
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:30 pm

Post by Four.nine »

Apparently, there was not enough praying for Cougar.
But then again, I once heard:
"You cannot petition the Lord with prayer".

Games 16-18:

Game16: ExPro gets a tainted win as move 59. .. Nxh3??????? is an absolute atrocity.

[Event "Cougar-ExProMaxStrngth"]
[Black "EPMS"]
[Date "Jan 27, 2018"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Round "16"]
[White "Cougar"]

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 e6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.e3 Nbd7 6.Bd3 Bd6 7.O-O O-O 8.Re1 dxc4 9.Bxc4 c5 10.Nb5 Be7 11.a4 b6 12.b3 Bb7 13.Bb2 a6 14.Nc3 cxd4 15.exd4 Bb4 16.Qe2 Rc8 17.Rac1 Nb8 18.Ne5 Nd5 19.Qg4 Bxc3 20.Bxc3 b5 21.axb5 axb5 22.Bxd5 Qxd5 23.Nd3 Qxb3 24.Nc5 Qd5 25.Re5 Qa2 26.Re2 Qd5 27.Re5 Qc6 28.Rb1 Nd7 29.Rg5 g6 30.Nxb7 Qxc3 31.Rgxb5 Nf6 32.Qf4 Nd5 33.Qe5 Rc4 34.Rd1 Qc2 35.Re1 Qd2 36.Nc5 Qxd4 37.Qxd4 Rxd4 38.Nb3 Rd3 39.Nc5 Rd2 40.Ne4 Rc2 41.Rb7 Ra8 42.Nd6 Nc7 43.h3 Raa2 44.Rd1 h5 45.Kh2 Rab2 46.Rxb2 Rxb2 47.Kg3 Nd5 48.Ra1 Rb3+ 49.Kh4 Rb6 50.Ra8+ Kg7 51.Rd8 Rb2 52.Kg3 g5 53.Kf3 h4 54.Nc4 Rb3+ 55.Ke4 Nf4 56.Ne3 f5+ 57.Ke5 Rb5+ 58.Kd6 Rb2 59.g3 Nxh3 60.Kxe6 Re2 61.Kxf5 hxg3 62.Rd7+ Kf8 63.Kf6 Rxf2+ 64.Kg6 g2 65.Nxg2 Rxg2 66.Rf7+ Ke8 67.Rc7 Rf2 68.Rh7 g4 69.Rh4 Nf4+ 70.Kf5 Ng2+ 71.Kxg4 Nxh4 72.Kxh4 Rf1 73.Kg3 Kf7 74.Kg2 Rf5 75.Kg3 Kf6 76.Kg4 Kg6 77.Kh4 Rg5 78.Kh3 Kf5 79.Kh2 Kf4 80.Kh3 Kf3 81.Kh2 Rh5+ 82.Kg1 Rh6 83.Kf1 Rh1# 0-1

This reversed color Game 6 quickly varied as Cougar calculated 11.a4 (ExPro played Bd3; SF says Nc3). The game was very close to a threepeat draw at move 27, but ExPro eschewed that with 27. .. Qc6. Cougar 30. Nxb7? looks like a nice N for B trade, but actually loses the “d” pawn at 36. .. Qxd4. There was some jockeying for position in a 2R+N+3P vs. 2R+N+4P endgame and a blunder by ExPro 43. .. Raa2? loses a pawn and a win. But Cougar misses the clever 45. Nxf7! and ExPro still has an extra pawn and possible win. ExPro builds up a second lead and after Cougar blunder 59. h3??, ExPro Rd2+ will be a 100% absolute, positive slam dunk win. ExPro turds 59. .. Nxh3?????????????????? Cougar gobbles up a couple of pawns and probably has a draw, and now excretes a loser of its own 63. Kf6???? (fxg3 and later sac of N for P should draw). The text move is basically GAME OVER.
ExPro has won the 20 game match...now leading 10.5-5.5 after 16 games (match Elo performance is +112). Apparently, prayer didn’t help Cougar.

Game17: Cougar wins a tough game. ExPro misses drawing chances.

[Event "Cougar-ExProMaxStrng match"]
[Black "Cougar"]
[Date "Jan 28, 2018"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Round "17"]
[White "EPMS"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.d3 Bb4 5.Nf3 d6 6.O-O Bxc3 7.bxc3 Na5 8.Bb3 Nxb3 9.cxb3 O-O 10.h3 b6 11.Bg5 h6 12.Bh4 a5 13.a4 c6 14.Re1 Bb7 15.Nh2 Bc8 16.Qf3 g5 17.Bg3 Be6 18.Rab1 Rc8 19.Nf1 g4 20.hxg4 Bxg4 21.Qe3 Kh7 22.d4 Qc7 23.f3 Be6 24.Red1 Rg8 25.dxe5 dxe5 26.Bf2 Nd7 27.Nd2 Rg7 28.Bh4 Nc5 29.Rb2 Rcg8 30.g3 f6 31.c4 Rd7 32.Rbb1 f5 33.Kh1 Rd4 34.exf5 Bxf5 35.Rb2 Rd3 36.Qf2 e4 37.Re1 Re8 38.Nxe4 Nxe4 39.fxe4 Bg6 40.Rbe2 Rxb3 41.c5 b5 42.e5 bxa4 43.e6 Rd3 44.Ra2 a3 45.Qf6 Qb8 46.Rae2 Qb3 47.Qf2 Qd5+ 48.Kh2 Rf3 49.Qg2 Rb3 50.Qf2 Rb5 51.Rd2 Qxd2 52.Qxd2 Rb2 53.Qg2 Rxg2+ 54.Kxg2 a2 55.Bf6 a4 56.Re2 Bb1 57.Bc3 Kg6 58.Kf3 Kf5 59.Re3 Bc2 60.g4+ Kg6 61.Kf4 Bb3 62.e7 Kf7 63.Rh3 Rxe7 64.Rxh6 Re1 65.g5 a1=Q 66.Bxa1 Rxa1 67.Rf6+ Kg7 68.Rxc6 a3 69.Rc7+ Bf7 70.Rxf7+ Kxf7 71.c6 Rc1 72.Kf5 Rxc6 73.Ke5 Re6+ 74.Kf5 a2 75.g6+ Rxg6 76.Ke4 a1=Q 77.Kd3 Rd6+ 78.Ke3 Qc3+ 79.Kf4 Rd4+ 80.Kg5 Qa5+ 81.Kh6 Rh4# 0-1

A 12 move repeat of Game 7, as ExPro goes for 13.a4 (Cougar calculated Nd2, SF prefers Re1). ExPro has a decent lead (+1.3) after 20. .. Bxg4 (SF says Nxg4). But, ExPro 24. Red1 (Bf2) and 25. dxe5 (Bh2) ends the ExPro fantasy of a “home and home” sweep. ExPro completely loses the use of one piece (Queen’s B) after 28. Bh4? and 30. g3? That positional mistake was the key error of the game. Unfortunately, Cougar made some errors that handed White a draw: 37. .. Re8? (Qe5!) and later ExPro had slim drawing chances with 59. g4+. However, after 59. Re3?, 60. g4+ (now, too late) and 63. Rh3? it was GAME OVER.
Cougar plays the C28n: Vienna 1-1 and gets point 6.5, trailing 6.5-10.5 after 17.
Final note: at move 77, ExPro “saw” Mate in 4. Cougar “saw” mate in 6 thus 77. .. Rd6+ which is less efficient than 77. .. Rg3+.

Game 18: Well, I suppose what’s good for the Cougar...is good for the ExPro: A 100% EXACT 44 move copy of Game 13, with reversed colors!!!

[Event "Cougar-ExPro MaxStr"]
[Black "EPMS"]
[Date "Jan 28, 2018"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Round "18"]
[White "Cougar"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Nf3 Bc5 5.e3 Nc6 6.Be2 Ngxe5 7.O-O O-O 8.Nc3 d6 9.Nxe5 Nxe5 10.b3 Bf5 11.Bf3 c6 12.Be4 Bg4 13.Qd2 f5 14.Bc2 Qf6 15.f3 Bh5 16.Rb1 a6 17.Na4 Ba7 18.Nc3 b5 19.Rf2 Rae8 20.Bb2 Qh6 21.Re1 f4 22.e4 Bxf3 23.Nd1 Bxd1 24.Bxd1 Bxf2+ 25.Kxf2 Qxh2 26.Bxe5 Qg3+ 27.Kf1 dxe5 28.Bf3 bxc4 29.bxc4 Rb8 30.Qc3 Rfe8 31.Rd1 Kh8 32.c5 Qh2 33.Kf2 g5 34.Be2 g4 35.Bf1 f3 36.Ke1 fxg2 37.Bxg2 Qxg2 38.Qd2 Qh1+ 39.Ke2 Qf3+ 40.Ke1 Rf8 41.Qh2 Qc3+ 42.Qd2 Qg3+ 43.Ke2 Qf3+ 44.Ke1 Qf1# 0-1

Games 13 and 18 offset each other; ExPro leads 11.5-6.5 after 18 games.
User avatar
Steve B
Site Admin
Posts: 10140
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:02 am
Location: New York City USofA
Contact:

Post by Steve B »

Four.nine wrote:Apparently, there was not enough praying for Cougar.
But then again, I once heard:
"You cannot petition the Lord with prayer".
.
Soft Parade...
Regards From The Doors
Steve
Four.nine
Full Member
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:30 pm

Post by Four.nine »

Steve B wrote:
Four.nine wrote:Apparently, there was not enough praying for Cougar.
But then again, I once heard:
"You cannot petition the Lord with prayer".
.
Soft Parade...
Regards From The Doors
Steve
Maybe I'll join a music forum and post chess nonsequitors!

Nobody seems interested in the match.
User avatar
Steve B
Site Admin
Posts: 10140
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:02 am
Location: New York City USofA
Contact:

Post by Steve B »

Four.nine wrote:
Steve B wrote:
Four.nine wrote:Apparently, there was not enough praying for Cougar.
But then again, I once heard:
"You cannot petition the Lord with prayer".
.
Soft Parade...
Regards From The Doors
Steve
Maybe I'll join a music forum and post chess nonsequitors!

Nobody seems interested in the match.
400+ views for a thread not even 1 week old shows a healthy amount of interest
the number of "lurkers" here far exceeds those few who actually make posts

Quantity Matters Regards
Steve
Four.nine
Full Member
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:30 pm

Post by Four.nine »

Steve B wrote:
Four.nine wrote:
Steve B wrote:
Four.nine wrote:Apparently, there was not enough praying for Cougar.
But then again, I once heard:
"You cannot petition the Lord with prayer".
.
Soft Parade...
Regards From The Doors
Steve
Maybe I'll join a music forum and post chess nonsequitors!

Nobody seems interested in the match.
400+ views for a thread not even 1 week old shows a healthy amount of interest
the number of "lurkers" here far exceeds those few who actually make posts

Quantity Matters Regards
Steve
OK...I'll buy that.

And good catch on the " petition"
Four.nine
Full Member
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:30 pm

Post by Four.nine »

The final two games:

Game 19: A wild one.

[Event "Cougar-ExProMS"]
[Black "Cougar"]
[Date "Jan 29, 2018"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Round "19"]
[White "EPMS"]

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.e5 Nd5 8.Nxd5 exd5 9.Qd4 Qa5+ 10.c3 Be7 11.Bd3 O-O 12.O-O d6 13.Bf4 dxe5 14.Bxe5 f6 15.Bg3 Re8 16.Rfe1 Ba6 17.Bxa6 Qxa6 18.Re6 Bf8 19.Qe3 Qc8 20.Rxe8 Qxe8 21.Qd2 Qg6 22.b4 Rd8 23.Re1 Re8 24.Rxe8 Qxe8 25.Kf1 g6 26.Qd4 f5 27.Be5 Qd7 28.Ke2 h5 29.a4 Kf7 30.Kd3 Be7 31.Bh8 Ke8 32.Be5 Qb7 33.a5 Kd7 34.Ke3 Ke6 35.g3 c5 36.bxc5 Qb5 37.Bd6 Bf6 38.Qd3 Qxa5 39.c4 d4+ 40.Ke2 Bg7 41.h4 Qa2+ 42.Kf3 a5 43.Bf4 Qa4 44.Bd6 Qc6+ 45.Ke2 Qe4+ 46.Kd2 a4 47.Bf4 Qc6 48.Qb1 Qxc5 49.Qb7 Be5 50.Bxe5 Qxe5 51.Qc6+ Qd6 52.Qxa4 f4 53.Qc2 Ke5 54.Qb3 Kf5 55.Qb5+ Ke4 56.c5 Qe5 57.Qb7+ Kf5 58.Qf7+ Kg4 59.Qxg6+ Kf3 60.gxf4 Qe2+ 61.Kc1 Qe1+ 62.Kb2 Qc3+ 63.Kb1 Qb4+ 64.Ka2 Qd2+ 65.Ka1 Qc3+ 66.Kb1 Qb4+ 67.Ka2 Qd2+ 68.Kb3 Qc3+ 69.Ka2 Qd2+ 1/2-1/2

An EXACT reversed colors repeat of Game 9, through White move 28. This includes the White 19. Qe3? where the simple Qxd5 wins a pawn. Very instructive, as this indicates, again, that through the middlegame ExPro≡Cougar. In this game, Cougar varies first with 28. .. h5 (ExPro was Be7 in Game 9 and SF says Qb7). By move 34, ExPro had a +0.6 lead and I thought ExPro would just slowly grind Cougar down. But, 34. Ke3? (Kc2) and 35. g3? ended ExPro’s victory march quickly. After ExPro 39. c4??, now it’s Cougar on the victory march; Cougar leads by -3.5! Cougar stumbled for a while, but ExPro helps out with 44. Bd6?? GAME OVER. At move 47, Cougar has a win with Qxd3+ (SF: Qd3+ Kxd3 a3 Kc2 Be5 Bd2 d3+ Kb3 Bd4 and White can’t cover all the threats at once). But Cougar is not StockFish. Cougar calculates what appears to be a reasonable “regroup” move 47. .. Qc6.
How ExPro finds the next move, the saving move, 48. Qb1!! is beyond me.
ExPro has been calculating turds and then, out of nowhere, comes up with that one. For 10 moves, ExPro has completely turned the game around and thanks to a couple of weak Cougar moves (56. .. Qe5? and 58. .. Kg4????), ExPro has won!!!!!!!!!! And now just at the absolute critical GAME OVER point (Qxf4+), ExPro pawn grabs: 59. Qxg6+??????????????????????????? DRAW. Oh my. So it goes.
ExPro Max Strength leads 12-7 with one to go.

Game 20: A DRAW just like Game 10...although ExPro had a chance.

[Event "Cougar_ExProMaxStrngth"]
[Black "EPMS"]
[Date "Jan 29, 2018"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Round "20"]
[White "Cougar"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 b6 4.Nc3 Bb7 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 Ne4 7.Bxe7 Qxe7 8.Nxe4 Bxe4 9.Be2 O-O 10.O-O c5 11.Bd3 Bxd3 12.Qxd3 cxd4 13.exd4 Nc6 14.Rfe1 Rfd8 15.d5 Nb4 16.Qd2 Qd6 17.a3 Na6 18.Rad1 exd5 19.Qxd5 Qxd5 20.Rxd5 Nc7 21.Rd6 Ne8 22.Rd3 Nf6 23.b4 Re8 24.Ne5 d5 25.cxd5 Rad8 26.d6 Re6 27.Kf1 Rexd6 28.Rxd6 Rxd6 29.Rc1 Ne8 30.Rc8 Kf8 31.Ra8 f6 32.Nc4 Rd7 33.Ke2 Ke7 34.Kf3 g6 35.h3 h5 36.a4 Ng7 37.Rc8 Rd4 38.Rc6 Ne6 39.Ke3 Rd7 40.b5 Nd4 41.Rc8 Nf5+ 42.Kf3 Ke6 43.g4 Ne7 44.Re8 Rd3+ 45.Ne3 hxg4+ 46.hxg4 Ra3 47.Ra8 Rxa4 48.Kg3 Kd7 49.f4 Ra3 50.Kf2 Ra5 51.Nc4 Rxb5 52.Rxa7+ Ke6 53.Rb7 f5 54.gxf5+ gxf5 55.Rxb6+ Rxb6 56.Nxb6 Nd5 57.Nxd5 Kxd5 58.Ke3 Kc4 59.Ke2 Kd4 60.Kf3 Kd3 61.Kf2 Ke4 62.Kg3 Ke3 63.Kg2 Kxf4 64.Kf2 Ke4 65.Ke2 f4 66.Kf2 f3 67.Kf1 Ke3 68.Ke1 Kf4 69.Kf1 Kg5 70.Ke1 Kh4 71.Kf1 Kg3 72.Kg1 Kh3 73.Kf1 Kh4 74.Kf2 Kg4 75.Kf1 Kf4 76.Kf2 Kg4 77.Kf1 1/2-1/2

An EXACT reversed colors repeat of Game 10, through White move 24. ExPro varies with the daring 24. .. d5?! (Cougar calculated Rac8 in Game 10, SF says Ng4), which seems to lose a pawn, unless you look 3 moves ahead. The position (R+N+5P on both sides) is dead even, but ExPro starts outendgaming Cougar after 43. g4? (Rc6+). At 47. .. Rxa4, ExPro has won the “a” pawn. Then at move 51, ExPro likely has a win with 51. .. Ra2+! (Ra2+ Kf3 Nc8!! g5 Ra4! Now what? The Knight moves and the Rook gets trapped OR the Knight is sac’d to save the Rook. Either way, Black wins). But, ExPro can’t find this killer combo and the game is drawn. I “let ‘em play” at the end, because Cougar kept showing -1.5 in the display even though it was a clear draw.

That’s all Folks!
ExPro wins the first ten 6.5-3.5 and the reversed color ten, 6-4. The match performance of ExPro MAX STRENGTH (12.5-7.5) at 1 min/move was +89. As stated numerous times: ExPro and Cougar are identical UNTIL some point in the late middlegame or endgame, where program enhancements were made by somebody. In general (not always), ExPro calculates a measurably stronger finish. THEREFORE, ExPro and Cougar ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
Stats: ExPro had Three 2-0 games (WH & BL); Cougar had One. ExPro had Two 1.5-0.5 games; Cougar had One. Three openings were even at 1-1. Also, only 5 draws; this program takes chances and slugs it out.

Conclusion:
The ExPro (Max Strength) result in the 20 game match vs. Cougar reminds me of what Bum Phillips once said of Bear Bryant:
"Bryant can take his'n and beat your'n, and then he can turn around and take your'n and beat his'n."

Recommendation:
If you own both, keep both.
If creditor’s, Alzheimer’s or your old lady force you to sell one:
Dump Cougar...ExPro IS absolutely stronger.

Challenge:
I did the ExProMS-Cougar deal.

I challenge someone with both Fidelity Mach4 (2123 elo) and ExPro to repeat a 20 game,1 min/move, reversed colors match. I believe ExProMS would get a 9-11 result (maybe with luck a 10-10).
Or how about Radio Shaft 2250XL? I would predict 14-6 against the “2058 rated” RS at Max Strength, 15-5 if RS was at default power up settings.
Reinfeld
Member
Posts: 486
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:54 am
Location: Tacoma, WA

Post by Reinfeld »

Excellent work. Thanks for taking up the challenge. You've offered some significant proofs of your thesis.

I am fiddling around with odds games (and real life) at the moment, but I own Fidelity Designer 2325 (a Mach IV equivalent) and ExPro, and I agree a match is worthwhile. I'll try to take a shot at games, but I'm a bit lazy, so it may take me more time. Bear with me.

- R.
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
Four.nine
Full Member
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:30 pm

Post by Four.nine »

Reinfeld wrote:Excellent work. Thanks for taking up the challenge. You've offered some significant proofs of your thesis.

I am fiddling around with odds games (and real life) at the moment, but I own Fidelity Designer 2325 (a Mach IV equivalent) and ExPro, and I agree a match is worthwhile. I'll try to take a shot at games, but I'm a bit lazy, so it may take me more time. Bear with me.

- R.
Thanks Rein.

And keep the ExPro.
It IS a best buy
Four.nine
Full Member
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:30 pm

Post by Four.nine »

Reinfeld wrote: I own Fidelity Designer 2325 (a Mach IV equivalent) and ExPro, and I agree a match is worthwhile. I'll try to take a shot at games, but I'm a bit lazy, so it may take me more time. Bear with me.

- R.
Sitting here downing my coffee, when I came up with a great idea!
Why don't you make it easy on yourself and ship me the 2325?
I'll run the match and you can sit back and relax and just read the results!
But I'm a bit lazy and it may take a while (OK, quite a while) to ship it back.
Reinfeld
Member
Posts: 486
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:54 am
Location: Tacoma, WA

Post by Reinfeld »

Oddly enough, historical sentiment on this forum seems to give Designer 2325 (Mach IV) less love than Designer 2265 (Mach III). For various reasons, players of long standing view 2265 with considerable affection.

I own both machines, so I understand from an aesthetic standpoint. No other machine looks like 2265, with its brown and cream color scheme. Plus it plays nasty. I may be remembering this inaccurately, but I thought some players felt that 2325 played a less interesting game. Nevertheless, you can't argue with ratings.

- R.
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
Four.nine
Full Member
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:30 pm

Post by Four.nine »

Reinfeld wrote:Oddly enough, historical sentiment on this forum seems to give Designer 2325 (Mach IV) less love than Designer 2265 (Mach III). For various reasons, players of long standing view 2265 with considerable affection
- R.
I too have a Mach III. Second chess computer I ever bought. Couldn't afford it...bought it anyway. Never regretted it. Nice machine.

But, the Mach IV? I have overclocked versions. Brutal machines that will smoke the Mach III. Too Expensive, but again, never regretted buying them. Too bad the IV is not appreciated by some. I know it is an excellent chess computer.
Post Reply