Indefinite starting chess positions

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Programmist
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Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:31 pm

Indefinite starting chess positions

Post by Programmist »

In the general opinion of many chess analysts, classic chess starting position is drawish with a large margin, moreover, results of high level correspondence chess tournaments prove it. The question arises, does every initial starting position have a clear assessment? And what makes the classic position drawish?

Experimental games and some theory show, that positions with different arrangement of black and white pieces are less definite.

In such positions, one side is often stronger and fights for win, while other side tries to defend. This makes chess game with this starting position a two result game effectively in advanced chess.

Initial position name AlfaDelta-

[fen]brnqknrb/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RKBNQBNR w - - 0 1 [/fen]
fen code brnqknrb/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RKBNQBNR w - - 0 1
Score 3-3

Advanced games with long time control
burcontovk-concord 0-1
concord-burcontovk 1-0
Engine-genadiy 1-0
genadiy-Engine 0-1
Jadn-Programmist 0-1
Programmist-Jadn 1-0


Initial position name EtaAlfa-

[fen]rnbqnbkr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBKNBQR w - - 0 1[/fen]
fen code rnbqnbkr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBKNBQR w - - 0 1
(black to win)

Score 4-5

Advanced games with long time control
genadiy-Daiver 0-1
Daiver-genadiy 0-1
burcontovk-Engine 1-0
Engine-burcontovk 1-0
burcontovk-Programmist 0-1
Programmist-burcontovk 1-0
Engine-Daiver 0-1
Daiver-Engine 1-0
concord-Jadn 1-0


Initial position name BetaZeta+

[fen]bnrkqrnb/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RKBNNBQR w - - 0 1[/fen]
fen code bnrkqrnb/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RKBNNBQR w - - 0 1
Score 2-2

Advanced games with long time control
genadiy-burcontovk 1-0
burcontovk-genadiy 0-1
Daiver-Engine 1-0
Engine-Daiver 0-1


Initial position name GammaZeta+

[fen]bnrkqrnb/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RKNBBNQR w - - 0 1[/fen]
fen code bnrkqrnb/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RKNBBNQR w - - 0 1
Score 1-3

Advanced games with long time control
genadiy-Programmist 0-1
Programmist-genadiy 0-1
concord-Engine 0-1
Engine-concord 1-0


Initial position name BetaZeta-

[fen]bnrqkrnb/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RKBNNBQR w - - 0 1[/fen]
fen code bnrqkrnb/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RKBNNBQR w - - 0 1
Score 2-4

Advanced games with long time control
Daiver-concord 1-0
concord-Daiver 0-1
Engine-Jadn 0-1
Jadn-Engine 0-1
genadiy-Programmist 0-1
Programmist-genadiy 1-0


Initial position name GammaZeta-

[fen]bnrqkrnb/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RKNBBNQR w - - 0 1[/fen]
fen code bnrqkrnb/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RKNBBNQR w - - 0 1
Score 3-2

Advanced games with long time control
Daiver-Programmist 1-0
burcontovk-Engine 0-1
Engine-burcontovk 0-1
concord-genadiy 1-0
genadiy-concord 1-0

Arrangements of white and black pieces were selected among symmetrical ones.
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paulwise3
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Posts: 1505
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:56 am
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands

Post by paulwise3 »

These are asymmetric starting positions. I like Chess960 better (you can play it for instance at http://littlegolem.net).
The "trick" is, to find the weak spot, normally f2/f7, but in Chess960 that changes. He who attacks first (usually white ;-)) has a nice initiative.

Weak spot regards,
Paul
2024 Special thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12741
2024 Special results and standings: https://schaakcomputers.nl/paul_w/Tourn ... 25_06.html
If I am mistaken, it must be caused by a horizon effect...
Programmist
Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:31 pm

Post by Programmist »

I am talking about advanced chess games and engines games with long time control, not human games.
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paulwise3
Senior Member
Posts: 1505
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:56 am
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands

Post by paulwise3 »

What I am trying to say is, that I see no point in analyzing asymmetric starting positions. I do not believe they will ever be used for normal chess tournaments.
2024 Special thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12741
2024 Special results and standings: https://schaakcomputers.nl/paul_w/Tourn ... 25_06.html
If I am mistaken, it must be caused by a horizon effect...
Programmist
Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:31 pm

Post by Programmist »

Almost all Chess960 starting positions are clear drawish in advance from my experience, because of black and white pieces have same arrangement, and advanced chess tournaments with this positions tend to be draw.
Programmist
Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:31 pm

Post by Programmist »

ASFC (chess with indefinite starting positions) engine tournament. Time control 180 minutes + 20 seconds per move.

Code: Select all

Stockfish 8.9   | *  | 11 | 11 | 11 | 33 | +9 | 69% | 1
Stockfish 8     | 5  | *  | 10 | 11 | 26 | +2 | 54% | 2  
Strong Engine Y | 5  | 6  | *  | 9  | 20 | -4 | 42% | 3
Strong Engine X | 5  | 5  | 7  | *  | 17 | -7 | 35% | 4

No draws, score 45-51 for defending side. Stockfish 8.9 is last Stockfish build. With undetermined starting positions difference between stronger and weaker engines is much bigger, cause drawish nature of usual positions does not affect and diminish engine's advantages.
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