fidelity electronics designer 2100
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fidelity electronics designer 2100
Hi
could someone who has a real designer 2100 (non display) open it to see what is really inside.
i am interested by the main-board ID an the ROM ID
the ROM ID is written on the ROM, except for par_excellence, and designer 2X00 display which have an UV-PROM ( UV erasable PROM).
and if possible take the reference of the CPU.
here are all the data for excellence/designer family boards based on 6502 CPU and it is just missing the designer 2100 :
Name ..................... Model . Year ... PCB-id ............. ROM-id .......... CLK ..... ROM .. RAM.
Excellence .............. EP12 .. 1985 . 510-1099A01 . 101-1072A01 . 3MHz . 16KB . 2KB
Excellence .............. 6080 .. 1985 . 510-1099A01 . 101-1072B01 . 3MHz . 16KB . 2KB
Excellence .............. 6080 .. 1986 . 510-1099B01 . 101-1072B01 . 3MHz . 16KB . 2KB
Par Excellence ........ 6083 .. 1986 . 510-1099B01 . id N.A. ...... .... 5MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Excellence .............. 6080B . 1987 . 510-1117A02 . 101-1080A01 . 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Excellence Voice ...... 6092 .. 1987 . 510-1117A02 . 101-1080A01 . 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Excel Display ........... 6093 .. 1988 . 510-1121A01 . 101-1080A01 . 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Designer 2000 ........ 6102 .. 1988 . 510-1129A01 . 101-1077A01 . 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Designer 2100 ........ 6103 .. 1988 . ? .................. ? ..... .............. 5MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Designer 2000 Dsp. . 6105 .. 1988 . 510-1130A01 . id N.A. .......... 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Designer 2100 Dsp. . 6106 .. 1988 . 510-1130A01 . id N.A. .......... 6MHz . 64KB . 8KB
Programs of those families are very proach. each one is derived from the previous adding new features, correcting some bugs or changing the size of the opening book.
regards.
could someone who has a real designer 2100 (non display) open it to see what is really inside.
i am interested by the main-board ID an the ROM ID
the ROM ID is written on the ROM, except for par_excellence, and designer 2X00 display which have an UV-PROM ( UV erasable PROM).
and if possible take the reference of the CPU.
here are all the data for excellence/designer family boards based on 6502 CPU and it is just missing the designer 2100 :
Name ..................... Model . Year ... PCB-id ............. ROM-id .......... CLK ..... ROM .. RAM.
Excellence .............. EP12 .. 1985 . 510-1099A01 . 101-1072A01 . 3MHz . 16KB . 2KB
Excellence .............. 6080 .. 1985 . 510-1099A01 . 101-1072B01 . 3MHz . 16KB . 2KB
Excellence .............. 6080 .. 1986 . 510-1099B01 . 101-1072B01 . 3MHz . 16KB . 2KB
Par Excellence ........ 6083 .. 1986 . 510-1099B01 . id N.A. ...... .... 5MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Excellence .............. 6080B . 1987 . 510-1117A02 . 101-1080A01 . 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Excellence Voice ...... 6092 .. 1987 . 510-1117A02 . 101-1080A01 . 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Excel Display ........... 6093 .. 1988 . 510-1121A01 . 101-1080A01 . 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Designer 2000 ........ 6102 .. 1988 . 510-1129A01 . 101-1077A01 . 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Designer 2100 ........ 6103 .. 1988 . ? .................. ? ..... .............. 5MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Designer 2000 Dsp. . 6105 .. 1988 . 510-1130A01 . id N.A. .......... 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Designer 2100 Dsp. . 6106 .. 1988 . 510-1130A01 . id N.A. .......... 6MHz . 64KB . 8KB
Programs of those families are very proach. each one is derived from the previous adding new features, correcting some bugs or changing the size of the opening book.
regards.
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Hello,
I don't have a designer 2100, but I have a Par excellence (with excellence box + black ribbon on bottom left):
Par Excellence ........ 6083 .. 1986 . 510-1099A01 . 101-1077A01 . 5MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Best regards.
I don't have a designer 2100, but I have a Par excellence (with excellence box + black ribbon on bottom left):
Par Excellence ........ 6083 .. 1986 . 510-1099A01 . 101-1077A01 . 5MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Best regards.
Last edited by mychess on Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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thank you very much.
your mail is very interesting for the chronology.
The par_excellence i have seen had no ID on ROM because it was an UV-PROM ( UV erasable).
so the par excellence i had was like that:
Name ..................... Model . Year ... PCB-id ............. ROM-id .......... CLK ..... ROM .. RAM.
Par Excellence ........ 6083 .. 1986 . 510-1099B01 . id N.A. ...... .... 5MHz . 32KB . 8KB
and the designer 2000 i have is like this:
Name ..................... Model . Year ... PCB-id ............. ROM-id .......... CLK ..... ROM .. RAM.
Designer 2000 ........ 6102 .. 1988 . 510-1129A01 . 101-1077A01 . 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
so you have the missing link between the par excellence and designer 2000 program.
your have the par excellence hardware with the designer 2000 software.
there is a very minor difference in the two programs : the 101-1077A01 and the 'non_labeled' par_excellence program.
i wondered which one was the first and which one the second.
according to your par_excellence board:
the non_labelled ROM was probably the first, it was in UV-PROm maybe because they were not yet sure of the binary.
and after that they ROMed the code in the 101-1077A01 for the designer 2000.
regards.
your mail is very interesting for the chronology.
The par_excellence i have seen had no ID on ROM because it was an UV-PROM ( UV erasable).
so the par excellence i had was like that:
Name ..................... Model . Year ... PCB-id ............. ROM-id .......... CLK ..... ROM .. RAM.
Par Excellence ........ 6083 .. 1986 . 510-1099B01 . id N.A. ...... .... 5MHz . 32KB . 8KB
and the designer 2000 i have is like this:
Name ..................... Model . Year ... PCB-id ............. ROM-id .......... CLK ..... ROM .. RAM.
Designer 2000 ........ 6102 .. 1988 . 510-1129A01 . 101-1077A01 . 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
so you have the missing link between the par excellence and designer 2000 program.
your have the par excellence hardware with the designer 2000 software.
there is a very minor difference in the two programs : the 101-1077A01 and the 'non_labeled' par_excellence program.
i wondered which one was the first and which one the second.
according to your par_excellence board:
the non_labelled ROM was probably the first, it was in UV-PROm maybe because they were not yet sure of the binary.
and after that they ROMed the code in the 101-1077A01 for the designer 2000.
regards.
Hi,yoyo_chessboard wrote:i wondered which one was the first and which one the second.
according to your par_excellence board:
the non_labelled ROM was probably the first, it was in UV-PROm maybe because they were not yet sure of the binary.
and after that they ROMed the code in the 101-1077A01 for the designer 2000.
I don't think so. We have...
Par Excellence 1)
PCB = 510-1099A01 - 1985 (same as Excellence EP12/6080)
ROM = Mask-ROM with id. 101-1077A01 (same as Designer 2000!?)
Par Excellence 2)
PCB = 510-1099B01 - 1986 (more modern)
ROM = UV-EPROM withou id.
Fidelity used Mask-ROM on its first chess computers, and then was progressively using UV-EPROM.
Regards,
Gerardo M. (aka Berger)
Wow, that is a bit strange. If you don't mind investigating a little more, two things would help us:
- Without removing the PCB, a photo of the track side (solder side). The photo must cover the area of ROM and RAM (IC5 and IC6, respectively)
- The first part of the serial number. The one of the Par Excellence commented above, examined by me, is 63182xxx
BTW, is it possible that your Par Excellence has been upgraded "after" leaving the factory?
Regards,
Gerardo M. (aka Berger)
- Without removing the PCB, a photo of the track side (solder side). The photo must cover the area of ROM and RAM (IC5 and IC6, respectively)
- The first part of the serial number. The one of the Par Excellence commented above, examined by me, is 63182xxx
BTW, is it possible that your Par Excellence has been upgraded "after" leaving the factory?
Regards,
Gerardo M. (aka Berger)
Hello Berger,
The chip seems to have its original soldering.
The Eprom chip is manufactured by GI on 8610, like others IC on this ParExcellence (except RAM chip from 8527).
The first part of the serial number is 61019xxx.
They are many cutted tracks on the PCB, surely industrial tool (same style).
Regards.
Mychess
The chip seems to have its original soldering.
The Eprom chip is manufactured by GI on 8610, like others IC on this ParExcellence (except RAM chip from 8527).
The first part of the serial number is 61019xxx.
They are many cutted tracks on the PCB, surely industrial tool (same style).
Regards.
Mychess
Hi,
GI EPROM... same chip in my Par Excellence, but with date code 8635.
The cutted tracks (and added jumpers) are ok. That modification is required to use ROM=32KB and RAM=8KB. By default this PCB is configured to ROM=16KB and RAM=2KB (Excellence EP12/6080)
The serial number indicates that it's an older unit, so id. 101-1077A01 seems to match both Designer 2000 and Par Excellence ROM. The problem is that Yovan has detected a minimal difference between the two binaries, right Yovan?
Regards,
Gerardo M. (aka Berger)
GI EPROM... same chip in my Par Excellence, but with date code 8635.
The cutted tracks (and added jumpers) are ok. That modification is required to use ROM=32KB and RAM=8KB. By default this PCB is configured to ROM=16KB and RAM=2KB (Excellence EP12/6080)
The serial number indicates that it's an older unit, so id. 101-1077A01 seems to match both Designer 2000 and Par Excellence ROM. The problem is that Yovan has detected a minimal difference between the two binaries, right Yovan?
Regards,
Gerardo M. (aka Berger)
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- Member
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- Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:44 pm
- Location: South of France - cote d'azur
Hi
could someone who has a real designer 2100 (non display) open it to see what is really inside.
i am interested by the main-board ID an the ROM ID
the ROM ID is written on the ROM, except for par_excellence, and designer 2X00 display which have an UV-PROM ( UV erasable PROM).
and if possible take the reference of the CPU.
the rom begins with 101-1077A01 for designer 2000.
or could someboby sell me it designer 2100 ?
(i leave in France)
here are all the data for excellence/designer family boards based on 6502 CPU and it is just missing the designer 2100 :
Name ..................... Model . Year ... PCB-id ............. ROM-id .......... CLK ..... ROM .. RAM.
Excellence .............. EP12 .. 1985 . 510-1099A01 . 101-1072A01 . 3MHz . 16KB . 2KB
Excellence .............. 6080 .. 1985 . 510-1099A01 . 101-1072B01 . 3MHz . 16KB . 2KB
Excellence .............. 6080 .. 1986 . 510-1099B01 . 101-1072B01 . 3MHz . 16KB . 2KB
Par Excellence ........ 6083 .. 1986 . 510-1099B01 . id N.A. ...... .... 5MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Excellence .............. 6080B . 1987 . 510-1117A02 . 101-1080A01 . 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Excellence Voice ...... 6092 .. 1987 . 510-1117A02 . 101-1080A01 . 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Excel Display ........... 6093 .. 1988 . 510-1121A01 . 101-1080A01 . 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Designer 2000 ........ 6102 .. 1988 . 510-1129A01 . 101-1077A01 . 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Designer 2100 ........ 6103 .. 1988 . ? .................. ? ..... .............. 5MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Designer 2000 Dsp. . 6105 .. 1988 . 510-1130A01 . id N.A. .......... 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Designer 2100 Dsp. . 6106 .. 1988 . 510-1130A01 . id N.A. .......... 6MHz . 64KB . 8KB
Programs of those families are very proach. each one is derived from the previous adding new features, correcting some bugs or changing the size of the opening book.
regards.
could someone who has a real designer 2100 (non display) open it to see what is really inside.
i am interested by the main-board ID an the ROM ID
the ROM ID is written on the ROM, except for par_excellence, and designer 2X00 display which have an UV-PROM ( UV erasable PROM).
and if possible take the reference of the CPU.
the rom begins with 101-1077A01 for designer 2000.
or could someboby sell me it designer 2100 ?
(i leave in France)
here are all the data for excellence/designer family boards based on 6502 CPU and it is just missing the designer 2100 :
Name ..................... Model . Year ... PCB-id ............. ROM-id .......... CLK ..... ROM .. RAM.
Excellence .............. EP12 .. 1985 . 510-1099A01 . 101-1072A01 . 3MHz . 16KB . 2KB
Excellence .............. 6080 .. 1985 . 510-1099A01 . 101-1072B01 . 3MHz . 16KB . 2KB
Excellence .............. 6080 .. 1986 . 510-1099B01 . 101-1072B01 . 3MHz . 16KB . 2KB
Par Excellence ........ 6083 .. 1986 . 510-1099B01 . id N.A. ...... .... 5MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Excellence .............. 6080B . 1987 . 510-1117A02 . 101-1080A01 . 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Excellence Voice ...... 6092 .. 1987 . 510-1117A02 . 101-1080A01 . 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Excel Display ........... 6093 .. 1988 . 510-1121A01 . 101-1080A01 . 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Designer 2000 ........ 6102 .. 1988 . 510-1129A01 . 101-1077A01 . 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Designer 2100 ........ 6103 .. 1988 . ? .................. ? ..... .............. 5MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Designer 2000 Dsp. . 6105 .. 1988 . 510-1130A01 . id N.A. .......... 3MHz . 32KB . 8KB
Designer 2100 Dsp. . 6106 .. 1988 . 510-1130A01 . id N.A. .......... 6MHz . 64KB . 8KB
Programs of those families are very proach. each one is derived from the previous adding new features, correcting some bugs or changing the size of the opening book.
regards.
2100 non display. 6103
Ok
So I found the following for the 2100 non display, 1988 mo 6103
Pub.id. 510.1129A01
ROM. 101.1077A01
I will leave it open for a few days, if you need anything else
Thanks
Dennis
So I found the following for the 2100 non display, 1988 mo 6103
Pub.id. 510.1129A01
ROM. 101.1077A01
I will leave it open for a few days, if you need anything else
Thanks
Dennis
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hi
i would like to thank you for that (last) piece of the puzzle of the designer/excellence range of boards.
i tried to buy a designer 2100 but they are very rare and I did'nt catch any.
i have now the whole chain, from the excellence EP12 till the designer 2100, and also chesster challenger which is a bit different (very noisy)
so you have confirmed what i supposed, studying the code, and studying also the par_excellence code :
the code is the same in designer 2000 and designer 2100 (both non display).
only the clock is different:
in designer 2000 the clock is at 3 Mhz
in designer 2100 the clock is supposed to be at 5 Mhz (i do'nt have any photo)
could you made a photo of the main board ?
that opens a new question :
technically :
both models share the same binary and the same harware except the clock.
in that binary there is the program and the opening book.
commercially (according to the commercial data) :
designer 2000 is supposed to have a 12000 moves opening book
and designer 2100 is supposed to have a 16000 positions
so there is clearly a problem : commercial data don't match technical data.
so it is as fidelity has underrated designer 2000 or overrated designer 2100 regarding the opening book.
anyway it is a good new and my designer are running (flying ) at 15 Mhz.
so i have a "super designer" 2X00 non display. if designer 2100 at 5 Mhz is rated 2100, designer at 15 Mhz is probably more than 2200.
designer 2X00 display :
the designer 2X00 display have another opening book structure , so it can't be directly compared to designer 2X00 non display.
what i have stablished : the 2100 display has really a bigger opening book than in designer 2000 display.
and the chesster challenger has also the same opening book structure tahn the designer 2X00 display.
regards.
i would like to thank you for that (last) piece of the puzzle of the designer/excellence range of boards.
i tried to buy a designer 2100 but they are very rare and I did'nt catch any.
i have now the whole chain, from the excellence EP12 till the designer 2100, and also chesster challenger which is a bit different (very noisy)
so you have confirmed what i supposed, studying the code, and studying also the par_excellence code :
the code is the same in designer 2000 and designer 2100 (both non display).
only the clock is different:
in designer 2000 the clock is at 3 Mhz
in designer 2100 the clock is supposed to be at 5 Mhz (i do'nt have any photo)
could you made a photo of the main board ?
that opens a new question :
technically :
both models share the same binary and the same harware except the clock.
in that binary there is the program and the opening book.
commercially (according to the commercial data) :
designer 2000 is supposed to have a 12000 moves opening book
and designer 2100 is supposed to have a 16000 positions
so there is clearly a problem : commercial data don't match technical data.
so it is as fidelity has underrated designer 2000 or overrated designer 2100 regarding the opening book.
anyway it is a good new and my designer are running (flying ) at 15 Mhz.
so i have a "super designer" 2X00 non display. if designer 2100 at 5 Mhz is rated 2100, designer at 15 Mhz is probably more than 2200.
designer 2X00 display :
the designer 2X00 display have another opening book structure , so it can't be directly compared to designer 2X00 non display.
what i have stablished : the 2100 display has really a bigger opening book than in designer 2000 display.
and the chesster challenger has also the same opening book structure tahn the designer 2X00 display.
regards.
I have a Fidelity Excellence EP12 with a red "4MHz" sticker on the bottom plate. Where does it fit in the Excellence / Designer lineup ?
Back in the 80's I had the Designer Display 2100. It had an ugly playing style, always snatching a pawn here and a pawn there and then quickly moving to a favourable endgame.
I can't remember ever winning against the 2100, whereas I was better against the MM4 and the Polgar. Also the two latter modules very often had a hard time against the 2100, albeit through very long and boring games.
In the end I sold both the 2100, primarily since I hated it, and the Polgar having bought the Vancouver 32 bit. But as of today I would re-buy both the 2100 and the Polgar, the former to re-ignite hate and the latter since it had a very nice playing style.
Regards,
M
Back in the 80's I had the Designer Display 2100. It had an ugly playing style, always snatching a pawn here and a pawn there and then quickly moving to a favourable endgame.
I can't remember ever winning against the 2100, whereas I was better against the MM4 and the Polgar. Also the two latter modules very often had a hard time against the 2100, albeit through very long and boring games.
In the end I sold both the 2100, primarily since I hated it, and the Polgar having bought the Vancouver 32 bit. But as of today I would re-buy both the 2100 and the Polgar, the former to re-ignite hate and the latter since it had a very nice playing style.
Regards,
M