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Bryan Whitby
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Post by Bryan Whitby »

Hi Tracy

I haven't heard of any one playing the MESS Chess Computer Emulator via the DGT board but maybe Frans has?

You would need Berger to give you the Solus MESS code for the Teensy Development Board if you build yourself a SolusChess board like I did. He hasn't advertised it on his web site so you would have to contact him before starting your build. If he does then you will still need to change quite a lot of Frans code which I had to do. It really isn't that straight forward!

Regards
Bryan
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Tournaments

Post by TracySMiller »

Just curious if anyone has run any tournaments playing these emulators against one another. Also, any thoughts as to if there would be problems playing emulators against one another on the same computer (assuming you could disable pondering on each virtual machine) versus using separate computers.
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paulwise3
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Post by paulwise3 »

On the german site there is someone playing a tournament between these emulated machines. But I don't know if he does it on the same or different pc's.

Regards, Paul
2024 Special thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12741
2024 Special results and standings: https://schaakcomputers.nl/paul_w/Tourn ... 25_06.html
If I am mistaken, it must be caused by a horizon effect...
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Bryan Whitby
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Post by Bryan Whitby »

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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

paulwise3 wrote:On the german site there is someone playing a tournament between these emulated machines. But I don't know if he does it on the same or different pc's.

Regards, Paul
You can do the same on one PC if the PC is modern.

regards
Nick
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

I thought I would play a test game with Mephisto London 68030-33 MHz playing at 90 seconds per move against DOSBox Rebel 6 playing at 30 seconds per move using 69,300 CPU cycles same as what I am using in my Swiss Tournament which is the equivalent of using a Pentium 90 MHz.

The game was very competitive and ended in a draw. Based on what I have seen so far in my Swiss Tournament, it seems that the use of Pentium 90 was the moment in time when DOS programs began to set themselves apart from dedicated chess computers when it comes to play strength. This is the result of better hardware really and not much else as you can see from the test below.

Therefore for example the Mephisto Genius London program which was a Motorola 68,030 with 33 Mhz is too slow to compete successfully at the very top against the best Pentium 90 DOS programs. However if played at 68,030 with say 99 Mhz as the example below shows (3x original speed), they are still able to compete at the top very nicely.

It seems to me that when you play top dedicated programs against top DOS programs the best setting to play would be a 486DX2-66 MHz setting in DOSBox, which if I recall correctly is 26,700 CPU Cycles. With 486DX2-66 MHz you would still see original top dedicated chess computers competing well agaainst to DOS programs.

Or better still play against an original 486-66 DOS computer :)


Test Game:

DB Rebel 6 (30S) - Mephisto London 68030-33 MHz (90S)

RESULT: 1/2-1/2

CLICK BELOW TO REPLAY GAME

https://lichess.org/49ofRyyF


FINAL POSITION

[fen]8/6p1/8/5k1K/5P1P/8/8/8 w - - 0 54[/fen]


GAME QUALITY SUMMARY

DB Rebel 6 Active, 30S. (2400)
1 Inaccuracies
1 Mistakes
0 Blunders
12 Average centipawn loss

Mephisto London 68030-33 MHz, 90S. (2300)
2 Inaccuracies
1 Mistakes
0 Blunders
12 Average centipawn loss

Best regards
Nick
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Post by TracySMiller »

Interesting test. So you can equalize programs running as different clock speeds by giving more (less time), e.g. three times more clock speed gets one-third of the time per move?
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

TracySMiller wrote:Interesting test. So you can equalize programs running as different clock speeds by giving more (less time), e.g. three times more clock speed gets one-third of the time per move?
Hi Tracy,

This was just a test to see how they would compete using the DOSBox setting of P90 (69300 cpu cycles) I am using for my tournament and seeing what would be needed from a top dedicated chess computer in order to compete at the top of my tournament.

Playing as I did 90 seconds per move does not work exactly because of pondering. The dedicated computer like London for example ponders at 33 MHz while the equivalent P90 program ponders at London's 99 Mhz speed. So there is an advantage that still favors the P90 program.

With CB EMU on a modern computer you can cheat because you can test the dedicated program at full speed. In this case London showed that at max speed it plays the equivalent of 90 seconds in 30 seconds. This means using max speed and 90 seconds it ponders exactly the same as what the DOS program does at 30 seconds with P90 setting. You have to use a stopwatch set it to infinite and check it for each individual program to see what it could achieve in 30 seconds. Every PC and every emulated dedicated chess computer is different so everyone would have to do that for themselves. Hence not that practical or consistent.

The above game example was exactly this test where London shows it can compete with Rebel 6 on P90 when set to Max and 90 seconds per move in CB EMU. CB EMU is impractical because you would have to test and set up each program at a different setting if you are using max. They are not all the same.

Here are some examples of DOSBox settings.

Emulated CPU Cycles
8088 4.77 MHz = 315
286 12.5 MHz = 2750
386 33 MHz = 7800
486 33 MHz = 13400
486 66 MHz = 26800
Pentium 90 = 69300
Pentium 100 = 77000
Pentium II 300 = 200000

For a top dedicated computer to compete against top DOS probably the slower 486-66 or 486-33 CPU cycle would be needed.

In your case with your new Mephisto MM5, I would try it against for example Rebel 6 or M-Chess or Genius 1,2,3 on 486-33 or even 386-33 setting and see how it does.

Because MCGE plays at 300 MHz and Tasc R30 and Chessmachine programs are a step stronger, I expect these to compete at my P90 setting maybe in Division 1, but very little else.

P90 that I am using is a good compromise because imagine me playing Sargon 3 on AM68060 against the slower setting of 486-66 or 486-33 and the poor DOS programs would get hammered.

That was not my intent. I am hoping that the P90 setting lets the best compete against the best across different platforms.

I hope this explanation helps.

Regards
Nick
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Post by TracySMiller »

I suppose I didn't ask the most obvious question: If you take a real dedicated unit like the Mephisto MMV and play it against its virtual MESS equivalent, will the virtual MESS version be stronger due to its almost certainly being played on faster hardware? Does the virtual version have the same "brain" as the dedicated unit, just varying in strength due to the hardware difference?
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BenRedic
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Post by BenRedic »

TracySMiller wrote:I suppose I didn't ask the most obvious question: If you take a real dedicated unit like the Mephisto MMV and play it against its virtual MESS equivalent, will the virtual MESS version be stronger due to its almost certainly being played on faster hardware? Does the virtual version have the same "brain" as the dedicated unit, just varying in strength due to the hardware difference?
MESS emulates the original hardware, including the CPU speed. So an emulated unit at a certain level should perform exactly like the equivalent physical unit at the same level. BUT there is an option in MESS to increase the speed. When you have a machine running, go to Options -> Maximum Speed and select something you like. It still plays the same at a given level, only faster. I.e. at 1000% speedup level 4 should take 6 seconds per move instead of 60 seconds. But now you can increase the level, and it will still respond within reasonable time.
Thank you for an interesting game.
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MESS

Post by TracySMiller »

That's great. I love this emulator, because it means I can finally play some of these machines I know I are never going to be in my possession (because of scarcity and cost). I played a few games against Mephisto Berlin Pro London Upgrade, and it was apparent that it is VERY strong.
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Fernando
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Re: MESS

Post by Fernando »

TracySMiller wrote:That's great. I love this emulator, because it means I can finally play some of these machines I know I are never going to be in my possession (because of scarcity and cost). I played a few games against Mephisto Berlin Pro London Upgrade, and it was apparent that it is VERY strong.
I would be happy if I could say the same. I have never been capable of finishing a game with those sims due to freezing or anything bad happening, so I trowed it to the bin after too many tries

disappointed regards
Fern
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mclane
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Post by mclane »

emulators are a good alternative. see my latest christmas tournament:

Code: Select all

    Motor                                              Punkte MCGaFiMCCSChNoExNoMCCXElKiElScPaChCaNoScNiScKaSuChMe    S-B
01: MCE The King 10 mhz {Brettcomputer}                4,0/4  · 1 1   1   1                                          7,00
02: Gandalf 2.1 Medion E1210 {Brettcomputer}           3,0/4  0 · 1       1       1                                  3,00
03: Fidelity Elegance 8 mhz {Brettcomputer}            2,0/4  0 0 ·         1     1                                  1,00
04: MCE Genius 50 mhz {Brettcomputer}                  1,5/4        · 0 0 1     =                                    1,25
05: CSTalwhite Medion E1210 {Brettcomputer}            1,0/2  0     1 ·                                              1,50
05: ChessTiger 11.2 Medion E1210 {Brettcomputer}       1,0/1        1   ·                                            1,50
07: Novag Citrine {Brettcomputer}                      1,0/4  0 0   0     ·                     1                    0,00
07: Excalibur GM 32 mhz {Brettcomputer}                1,0/2      0         ·         1                              0,00
07: Novag Expert {Brettcomputer}                       1,0/1                  ·                     1                0,00
10: MCP8 Medion E1210 {Brettcomputer}                  0,5/1        =           ·                                    0,75
11: CXG Sphinx 40 {Brettcomputer}                      0,0/2    0 0               ·                                  0,00
11: Elite A/S Budapest {Brettcomputer}                 0,0/0                        ·                                0,00
11: Kishon Chesster 8 mhz {Brettcomputer}              0,0/1                0         ·                              0,00
11: Elektronika IM-01T {Brettcomputer}                 0,0/0                            ·                            0,00
11: SciSys Chess Champion MK IV {Brettcomputer}        0,0/0                              ·                          0,00
11: Parker Brothers Chess Philidor {Brettcomputer}     0,0/0                                ·                        0,00
11: Chafitz Sargon IV 16 mhz {Brettcomputer}           0,0/0                                  ·                      0,00
11: Capa 4.2 Medion E1210 {Brettcomputer}              0,0/1              0                     ·                    0,00
11: Novag Super-Constellation {Brettcomputer}          0,0/0                                      ·                  0,00
11: SciSys Superstar 28K {Brettcomputer}               0,0/1                  0                     ·                0,00
11: Nimzo 2.2.1 Medion E1210 {Brettcomputer}           0,0/0                                          ·              0,00
11: SciSys Chess Champion MKV {Brettcomputer}          0,0/0                                            ·            0,00
11: Kaffeehausschach VC64 {Brettcomputer}              0,0/0                                              ·          0,00
11: Superchess 3.5 ZX Spectrum {Brettcomputer}         0,0/0                                                ·        0,00
11: Chessplayer 2150 ATARI ST Hataroid {Brettcomputer} 0,0/0                                                  ·      0,00
11: Mephisto III S Emulator unlimited {Brettcomputer}  0,0/0                                                    ·    0,00

16 Partien von 325 gespielt
Name des Turniers: Schachcomputer
many entries are emulations.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....
fhub
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Re: MESS

Post by fhub »

Fernando wrote: I would be happy if I could say the same. I have never been capable of finishing a game with those sims due to freezing or anything bad happening, so I trowed it to the bin after too many tries
Well Fernando,

now there's a package MESS-Chess_UCI+WB available on my website, which should also be suitable for you: ;)
https://fhub.jimdo.com/

One of the MAME developers (Sandro Ronco) wrote a chess plugin, which allows to use those emulations of old chess computers as UCI or WB engines in any UCI/WB chess GUI.
I've modified the main program 'mess.exe' a bit, added a few more plugins and put everthing that is necessary into a complete package.
I've even included a minimal Arena and WinBoard system, so you can use this package 'out of the box' without any further installation (only for Arena you have to run the included 'INSTALL.bat' to import the engine list into the registry).

I hope that this version will also be usable for YOU ... ;)

Regards,
Franz
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BenRedic
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Re: MESS

Post by BenRedic »

fhub wrote:now there's a package MESS-Chess_UCI+WB available on my website, which should also be suitable for you: ;)
https://fhub.jimdo.com/
Vielen Dank :-)
Thank you for an interesting game.
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