Ron Nelson Ever Copied, Used , Cloned the Spracklen?

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ChessChallenger
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Re: Ron Nelson

Post by ChessChallenger »

spacious_mind wrote:
ChessChallenger wrote: Sid Samole still was of the mind that the high-end consumer chess market was still attractive,
and wanted me to work on the Mirage, but work with David Levy for the chess engine.
I said I had a partial H8 chess engine that still needed developing and that with Larry Kaufman’s (a local chess Grand Master and computer chess expert) consultation
I could do it myself. So Sid said yes, as long as Larry approved the final program as being strong.
According to some dates I recorded it took 6 to 9 months. So if the Grand Master product, a sister product of the Mirage,
plays chess relatively well, it is because of Larry’s expertise.
Hi Ron,


For chess authoring purposes of the chess engine itself how would you like to see it named at our websites given that you are providing credit to Larry Kaufmann as well from what I gather from your post it reads something like this for Mirage --> Ivan --> Igor --> Grandmaster

Chess Engine Author: Ron Nelson - Chess Consultant: Larry Kaufmann

Would this be a fair assessment?


Best regards and thanks again for all this fantastic information please keep on sharing!!

Nick
Yes, a very fair assessment.
If it plays a good move it is because of Larry.
If it plays a bad move it is because of my programming.
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Fernando
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Re: Ron Nelson

Post by Fernando »

ChessChallenger wrote:
spacious_mind wrote:
ChessChallenger wrote: Sid Samole still was of the mind that the high-end consumer chess market was still attractive,
and wanted me to work on the Mirage, but work with David Levy for the chess engine.
I said I had a partial H8 chess engine that still needed developing and that with Larry Kaufman’s (a local chess Grand Master and computer chess expert) consultation
I could do it myself. So Sid said yes, as long as Larry approved the final program as being strong.
According to some dates I recorded it took 6 to 9 months. So if the Grand Master product, a sister product of the Mirage,
plays chess relatively well, it is because of Larry’s expertise.
Hi Ron,


For chess authoring purposes of the chess engine itself how would you like to see it named at our websites given that you are providing credit to Larry Kaufmann as well from what I gather from your post it reads something like this for Mirage --> Ivan --> Igor --> Grandmaster

Chess Engine Author: Ron Nelson - Chess Consultant: Larry Kaufmann

Would this be a fair assessment?


Best regards and thanks again for all this fantastic information please keep on sharing!!

Nick
Yes, a very fair assessment.
If it plays a good move it is because of Larry.
If it plays a bad move it is because of my programming.

Hahahaha
No, sir.
From time to time I still play cc7 and from time to time, if I am not careful, I get nasty surprises...
Festina Lente
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spacious_mind
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Re: Ron Nelson

Post by spacious_mind »

ChessChallenger wrote: Yes, a very fair assessment.
If it plays a good move it is because of Larry.
If it plays a bad move it is because of my programming.
You are being unfair to yourself :) The program plays very competitive and it's strength range is as good as any of the other programs in its category from other manufacturers. Some people have increased it's performance by doubling it's Quartz and thereby squeezing an extra 70 or so ELO out of it :) But it gets frowned upon for tampering with the insides :)
ChessChallenger wrote: But the Pop-Up Tent, Inc mechanical “engineer”, screwed up on the Mirage housing design and the main motor mounting was off axis and caused high failure rates.
At this same time, I also designed the Ivan with the H8 engine and Eric White’s HK company produced it for us.
But I was also completing my low end chess line at about that time, and we received a fantastic bid for producing them
from another HK manufacture, Sametime, Ltd, and started the production of my 6805 games there.
This worked well, so we asked our Mirage & Grand Master Hong Kong manufacturer, EWIG, Ltd to quote on the Ivan.
They were much lower than Eric White’s manufacturing company so we switched.
That is when Excalibur severed close relations with Eric’s company and Excalibur started its own Hong Kong presence.

Sid Samole’s Pop Tent, Inc had folded (the inventor told Sid he applied for a patent, but a distributor the inventor had contacted
before he talked to Sid, filed their own patent on the inventor’s design. The inventors patent claimes was rejected, and that was the end of Pop Tent).
So Sid was now full time at Excalibur and assumed control, and they moved to a smaller building.

This was in 1999, I took a 9 month sabbatical to work full time on a new 4-bit chess engine,
a new LCD segmented chess display and an innovative new housing design,
that years later, Sony would copy and call the Walkman Bean.
I returned to Excalibur and with the LCD Chess design in hand, and negotiated a more lucrative contract for myself.

Because of the mechanical design problems and lack of knowledge and experience by EWIG in Hong Kong to produce a sophisticated moving chess piece product,
there were many returns of the Mirage, which was bad for Excalibur’s financials.
So Excalibur was not doing well when I returned.
But that Christmas, LCD Chess was a huge success, and I was told by people in the know that I had rescued Excalibur to fight another day (year).
First the Par Excellence, now again a successful low cost, high profit margin, quality product breathes fresh air into a company when it is needed.
So if I am reading it correctly the invention of Mirage robot was stateside and not from Krypton originally but they were contracted to build the computer?

I think we can mostly figure out which programs had your 4 bit engine. Some of these would be I assume King Arthur's or Kingmaster II & III or the LCD Model 375's etc, New York Times, Chess Station and some others.

What is still a little unclear are the computers that played in the middle range below Grandmaster but higher play strength than the above mentioned.

These would be Alexandra, Ivan II, Phantom Force Robot, Touch Chess and Deluxe Talking Chess, New York Times Deluxe. These programs play a good game of chess but all lack the ability to think on opponents time. Would these be based around your H8 program but with Ponder removed?

Best regards
Nick
steffen
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Post by steffen »

Hello Ron,

thank you so much for your inside information about your life.
I also want to thank you for the very first beginning of our hobby. It´s an honor for all of us, I guess, that you are discussing here with us. Without you no Chess Challenger, the very 1st chess computer, would have existed in this way. The one with the 1st black move 5g5e ;) No-one knows whether Sid would have found a programmer etc.
And this was the start of our hobby. B.t.w., I purchased a Chess Challenger (we call it CC 1 here) from Michael Spracklen some years ago ;)

May I please ask you another question?
Fidelity once sold the Advanced Voice, the Voice, the Sensory Voice (I guess the 1st press sensory board ever) and the Decorator/Grandmaster Voice.
Can you still remember whether the Grandmaster Voice had the same program as the Advanced Voice or Sensory Voice? We´ve led numerous discussions about this in the last years.

Best regards and Merry Christmas to all,
Steffen from Germany
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mclane
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Post by mclane »

Steve B wrote:
Steve B wrote:
well lets start with this
do you concede he is the Programmer of the GM?
Yes Or No?

Fairly straight forward question Regards
Steve
spacious_mind wrote:
Only Ron can answer that.
he did answer that
point blank ..in clear language
ill ask you again..do you now believe he programmed the GM...


Yes Or No Regards
Steve

It's hopeless.
It will not end to anything.
Ron says he did grandmaster (that is similar then igor, only igor is press sensory and with voice and sounds) while GM is magnetic.
Still he mentions horvath. What has horvath to do with GM ?
Nothing. Horvath did the computers that say "hello" when you switch them on.

So Ron says A and he says B.

I guess this is called religion.
A believer is not interested in facts but in his believe.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....
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mclane
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Post by mclane »

Steve B wrote:
spacious_mind wrote:
Steve B wrote:
Mike Watters wrote:
I know you would like to limit the discussion but in terms of our hobby finding out who individually or jointly programmed all 60+ Excaliburs is more significant and enlightening in my opinion.

Mike
ill ask you again as well...
do you now believe he programmed the GM??
Yes Or No?

Pinning You Down Regards
Steve
The word programmed is a very loose word.
ill Take that as a no
at least everyone here can clearly see how unreasonable your position is now
Amazing Regards
Steve
It's a religious thing.

You cannot logically talk with believers.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....
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mclane
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Post by mclane »

Steve B wrote:
spacious_mind wrote:

Hi Steve,

Are you the spokesman now for Ron Nelson? Is this why you PM'd him officially in front everyone? To be forewarned of us non-believers?

Questioning discrepancies is what reasonable human minds do.

Not blinded by faith regards
you mean you wont be blinded by the truth I guess
there is nothing reasonable about your position at this point

I notified him in public about my PM because he was new to the board and I didn't think he would even notice he had a PM waiting for him
that's why I explained where he should look for it
I have done this before with other new members
as to the content of my PM to him
I welcomed him to the board and I asked him if he remembered me and our conversations back then...to my chagrin..he did not remember me


and ..no .. I am not his spokeperson..I am the person from day 1 that said he programmed the GM as a result of conversations I had with him in the mid 2000's
you and Mike questioned my account
now he has come here and directly answered the question
in another thread Brian Whitby made contact with a VP of Excalibur who worked there the same time as Ron did and he confirmed that Ron was the programmer
you questioned the VP's account then and now you question Nelson's own
account from his own mouth
heres the truth Nick

You Cant Handle The Truth Regards
Steve
You said so from the first day and I came to similar conclusion by trying to relate the program with other dedicated machines from other programmers,
I could not find any similarity with other programmers work.
GM/Igor plays unique.

It's not horvath nor morsch, kittinger or anyone else I know.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....
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mclane
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Re: Ron Nelson

Post by mclane »

ChessChallenger wrote:Thanks for your interest in me and my products.
I would not have normally engaged discussions on a forum, but I could not let anyone think I had used the Fidelity Spracklen program,
or that I had not personally programmed and designed every chess computer Excalibur manufactured in China.

I do want to get back into computer chess, I am comfortably retired enjoying life with my wife, traveling (European River cruises are fantastic),
my grand children and dancing. I am not a fan of Facebook, but I recently joined so I can record my life events,
and go backwards on the timeline to memorialize my life. I do not accept friends I do not personally know.

I do not pretend to think I am in the same league as the Spracklens, Kittinger, Lang, Morsch or Shroeder.
They are all brilliant people that, to my knowledge, worked 24/7 on their high end chess programs.
I on the other hand designed and programmed many consumer products and games. I enjoyed working at
the low end and the challenges small memory and low cost processors presented. I was proud of my
single chip 8049 2K bytes 128 byte ram chess engine. My 4-bit processor chess engine was also another
great accomplishment for me since it used sophisticated PRV and Killer Move search techniques.
Thank you for your statements. Of course the first fidelity machines were limited concerning CPU, memory size.
You are the pioneer who made the first step. Without you the whole story would not have started this way.
We all have those machines until today and they still work very well.
Of course the have no permanent brain. We can not see much information about the search process. But it's clear to see a progress in work between the different challenger versions.

Then the spracklen came to fidelity and the hardware was changed from z80 into 6502.
Also permanent brain was now standard and search information came in.

With Excalibur you took your old program from z80/8088 days and compiled it with enhancements for the h8 ?
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

mclane wrote:
It's hopeless.
It will not end to anything.
Ron says he did grandmaster (that is similar then igor, only igor is press sensory and with voice and sounds) while GM is magnetic.
Still he mentions horvath. What has horvath to do with GM ?
Nothing. Horvath did the computers that say "hello" when you switch them on.

So Ron says A and he says B.

I guess this is called religion.
A believer is not interested in facts but in his believe.
What are you talking about.
Nick
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

mclane wrote: You said so from the first day and I came to similar conclusion by trying to relate the program with other dedicated machines from other programmers,
I could not find any similarity with other programmers work.
GM/Igor plays unique.

It's not horvath nor morsch, kittinger or anyone else I know.
Again what are you talking about.
Nick
ChessChallenger
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Re: Ron Nelson

Post by ChessChallenger »

spacious_mind wrote:
So if I am reading it correctly the invention of Mirage robot was stateside and not from Krypton originally but they were contracted to build the computer?

I think we can mostly figure out which programs had your 4 bit engine. Some of these would be I assume King Arthur's or Kingmaster II & III or the LCD Model 375's etc, New York Times, Chess Station and some others.

What is still a little unclear are the computers that played in the middle range below Grandmaster but higher play strength than the above mentioned.

These would be Alexandra, Ivan II, Phantom Force Robot, Touch Chess and Deluxe Talking Chess, New York Times Deluxe. These programs play a good game of chess but all lack the ability to think on opponents time. Would these be based around your H8 program but with Ponder removed?

Best regards
The Mirage was completely designed by me state side. Please do not mention Eric in the same sentence as The Mirage.
When Eric White copied my CC10 ROM bit for bit and started selling CC10's in the States made in Hong Kong, I grew a dislike for him. He was stupid enough however to buy them from our Stateside ROM vendor. I called them and said, look they are buying a copy of the ROM you make for us. They looked, they compared and that was the end of Eric White's CC10 in a plastic housing.
He didn't care, it got him into the business. It irked me no end that I had to work with him on producing the Ivan for us in HK.

I never agreed with Sid Samole about the lucrative business possibilities in the high end chess market. I wanted the average Joe consumer chess player or chess player want-a-be's.
The Hitachi H8 was being phased out for masked chip production, but the OTP was still available at a premium but had to be individually programmed.
So I made a huge effort and translated my H8 chess engine to the Sunplus later General Plus SPLB or GPLB series with 6502 core and LCD dot matrix drivers.
I seem to recall it didn't have as much ram as the H8, so I could not use the Attack Bit Map tables. In masked ROM releases you sweat bullets worried that it wouldn't work or had a bug. So I minimized risk, and commented out the call to the Ponder Routine, and knew battery life would double, since the chip went to sleep while the human thought. A better trade off in my system design philosophy.
ChessChallenger
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Post by ChessChallenger »

steffen wrote:Hello Ron,

thank you so much for your inside information about your life.
I also want to thank you for the very first beginning of our hobby. It´s an honor for all of us, I guess, that you are discussing here with us. Without you no Chess Challenger, the very 1st chess computer, would have existed in this way. The one with the 1st black move 5g5e ;) No-one knows whether Sid would have found a programmer etc.
And this was the start of our hobby. B.t.w., I purchased a Chess Challenger (we call it CC 1 here) from Michael Spracklen some years ago ;)

May I please ask you another question?
Fidelity once sold the Advanced Voice, the Voice, the Sensory Voice (I guess the 1st press sensory board ever) and the Decorator/Grandmaster Voice.
Can you still remember whether the Grandmaster Voice had the same program as the Advanced Voice or Sensory Voice? We´ve led numerous discussions about this in the last years.

Best regards and Merry Christmas to all,
Steffen from Germany
One of the biggest mistakes in my career was not amending my US Patent with my newly "invented" touch chess board.
Invented, ha ha... A salesman walked into my office in Chicago and said we have this new telephone keyboard that is flat. I said can you make it larger and 8x8? He said he would check.
Weeks later he walked in with a sample, and so was born the SCC.

The electronics from the Advanced Talking Chess or VCC as I know it, were built into the Decorator housing for those that wanted a large chess board.

You mentioned the reverse algebraic notation. Here is the story.

I made a sketch of how I wanted Chess Challenger to look. It is on my Facebook page.
But it was a stand alone unit next to a standard chess board. Fidelity's mechanical designer (very very talented, eventually started his own successful company) built it as one unit and but the coordinate graphics on the edges.
I didn't care since in the USA we (I) used P-K4, QxQ notation. When Sid showed it in Europe, NO ONE said anything.
I am sure he did not show it to any European rated players. So that is how it went into production.
steffen
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Post by steffen »

Funny story about the CC. Thank you, Ron. Here in Europe even the weakest club player knows this notation. Maybe the people were only sales people without any chess knowledge - or just too polite ;-)
B.t.w., which is your Facebook site, please? Seems interesting to read.
ChessChallenger
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Post by ChessChallenger »

ChessChallenger wrote:
You mentioned the reverse algebraic notation. Here is the story.

I made a sketch of how I wanted Chess Challenger to look. It is on my Facebook page.
But it was a stand alone unit next to a standard chess board. Fidelity's mechanical designer (very very talented, eventually started his own successful company) built it as one unit and but the coordinate graphics on the edges.
I didn't care since in the USA we (I) used P-K4, QxQ notation. When Sid showed it in Europe, NO ONE said anything.
I am sure he did not show it to any European rated players. So that is how it went into production.
I stand corrected. I looked closely at the prototype photo, it had the correct notation, I think...
Wow...40 years ago. When Sid got back he said he had excellent feedback.
When the mechanical designer went to cost the unit, it was very costly. So he made the ingenious cost effective housing we have come to know. It was then the notation was fixed to the label by his graphics. But I did not care since I had never used algebraic notation in my tournament game playing during my high school years.
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spacious_mind
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Re: Ron Nelson

Post by spacious_mind »

ChessChallenger wrote:
The Mirage was completely designed by me state side. Please do not mention Eric in the same sentence as The Mirage.
When Eric White copied my CC10 ROM bit for bit and started selling CC10's in the States made in Hong Kong, I grew a dislike for him. He was stupid enough however to buy them from our Stateside ROM vendor. I called them and said, look they are buying a copy of the ROM you make for us. They looked, they compared and that was the end of Eric White's CC10 in a plastic housing.
He didn't care, it got him into the business. It irked me no end that I had to work with him on producing the Ivan for us in HK.
I know you asked me not to mention the unnamed, so I won't but the collector part is getting the better of me now :)

Are you saying that there were Fidelity CC10's sold in the US from Hong Kong made in Hong Kong or the CC10 ROM was used in a foreign manufacturer's computer. Do you happen to recall which computer it was. I can visualize the two below as a possibility:

TRYOM CC-700

Image

or this one:

Westrak CC1

Image

Neither of these two have a known author and were manufactured in 1981.

Best regards
Nick
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