Wiki Chess Computer page compromised?

[Steve B]

i notice that there are now Wiki entries showing the .Info online oldies tournaments as World Championships..
does anyone know if these entries are new or were they always there?

its very funny to see that the .Info guys really do believe that their tournaments are World Championships
so much so that they are now announcing it as such on Wiki
sadly it only compromises the integrity of the wiki schachcomputer page i think

how about this..
Nick,myself,Mark ,Axel ,Ricardo,Alain,Thor,Larry and a few other members here on Hiarcs get together and have an online tournament this fall/winter
after the tournament is over we then will make a Wiki entry and call our tournament the 2007 Online Dedicated World Championships

on no wait!
there is an entry already for that on Wiki!


actually i think the hypothetical Hiarcs tournament would have more of a claim to be called the World Championship then the .Info tournament because at least in the Hiarcs tournament most of the contestants dont live within 30 minutes driving time of each other


if Wiki is to remain a reliable source of information regarding chess computers..

then the entries (i think there are 4 in total)should all be changed to read
.INFO Online Oldies tournaments ..

or..simply..Online Oldies Tournaments

Amused Regards
Steve

[Alain]

Hi Steve,

you have probably noticed that some members here including myself will participate to the next schachcomputer.info tournament !

As I said on the other thread, I share your point of view that this tournament is not a world championship... but I don't really care because it is always pleasant to participate to an old machines tournament... and I remember having "seen" you watching some games on chessgate last year

Best regards,
Alain

[Steve B]

Hi Steve,

you have probably noticed that some members here including myself will participate to the next schachcomputer.info tournament !

As I said on the other thread, I share your point of view that this tournament is not a world championship... but I don't really care because it is always pleasant to participate to an old machines tournament... and I remember having "seen" you watching some games on chessgate last year

Best regards,
Alain

well i certainly hope you enjoy the tournament Alain
in fact i hope you win it!


of course i imagine if i entered with the ResII-Rybka i would win the tournament easily and i would probably go undefeated(at 30 minutes/game) even against the assortment of modified computers and PC chess cards that are allowed to compete
but for myself personally.. i could never participate knowing that the organizers of the tournament will use the games to pretend it is a World Championship and then to make entries on Wiki to that effect

a sad day indeed for the integrity of Wiki!



Good Luck Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

i notice that there are now Wiki entries showing the .Info online oldies tournaments as World Championships..
does anyone know if these entries are new or were they always there?

its very funny to see that the .Info guys really do believe that their tournaments are World Championships
so much so that they are now announcing it as such on Wiki
sadly it only compromises the integrity of the wiki schachcomputer page i think

how about this..
Nick,myself,Mark ,Axel ,Ricardo,Alain,Thor,Larry and a few other members here on Hiarcs get together and have an online tournament this fall/winter
after the tournament is over we then will make a Wiki entry and call our tournament the 2007 Online Dedicated World Championships

on no wait!
there is an entry already for that on Wiki!


actually i think the hypothetical Hiarcs tournament would have more of a claim to be called the World Championship then the .Info tournament because at least in the Hiarcs tournament most of the contestants dont live within 30 minutes driving time of each other


if Wiki is to remain a reliable source of information regarding chess computers..

then the entries (i think there are 4 in total)should all be changed to read
.INFO Online Oldies tournaments ..

or..simply..Online Oldies Tournaments

Amused Regards
Steve

Hi Steve


I think we might be re-hashing a topic that was discussed in a forum thread a few weeks ago.

If anyone has been visiting Wiki or Schachinfo you will have noticed that since the early part of this year it has gradually been receiving a facelift. More machines have been added the page designs changed etc. The point behind all this as far as I am aware is to make it visually more appealing and simpler for everyone primarily the non-speaking German visitors to understand and enjoy even if it is in German. You also know that when time allows I try to help out by translating some of the key pages into English and I enjoy helping when I have time because I know it is a valuable resource for anyone interested in dedicated chess computers.

So anyway Micha has also been trying to do the same thing with the formats and designs of tournaments and (forget for now the name of the tournament) feels it is valuable for everyone to have access to the matches that have been played by forum members. The format which you now see has been available there I believe for about 3 months (certainly it was there before my trip to Brazil). What has been added very recently as far as I know was the format of the knockout stages after Group play. And this of course has been added because of the 4th online tournament to make the saliva flow for the forthcoming event.

But the key point here is that every game that was ever played is available for anyone to replay online anytime they wish. I think this is a monster effort that the administrator has put into this and secondly invaluable. As far as I know from Schachinfo members it will not end here. The plan I believe is to also share tournament results and matches from forum members in the same manner as well as endgame problems and tests etc etc.

With regards to the name, I don’t think that the name is important. The important thing is playing. You chat with enthusiasts while you play or while you watch and the contacts you make, information shared the fun you have with it is also something that should not be missed or belittled.

The tournament is not a closed shop anyone can enter it from anywhere. There are still places for anyone who wants to enter and language is not a barrier at all. Everyone manages with Pidgin English.

If Hiarcs or Ismenio started a tournament and called it an Online World Championship I would enter and I would not care about the name. I do not understand the hang-up about the name. But for now it is truly the only worldwide online dedicated chess computer tournament. You have enthusiasts from Kazakhstan, Poland, France, Spain, and Holland and yes also me in the USA, playing in this year’s tournament. So how far wrong could this chosen name for a fun amateur hobby really be? It is not that important no one’s life or livelihood is affected. In fact all this does is raise interest in the hobby.

No Wiki has not been compromised it has grown in free knowledge.

Well Steve if we all had the same opinion on everything then life would be very boring. So it is good that we differ in some !

All the best

[Steve B]

the problem Nick is that if the name World Championship means nothing..then why use it?
surely it was not picked out of thin air?

i really dont have a hangup with just any name
if you guys decided to call it the "Peter"championships or the "Wurste" Championships ..that would be fine..

but you know as well as i do that "World Championship" has a very clear and significant meaning
there is no way to justify its use and i dont see why it is used at all if not to make the tournament appear more then it is..
which is simply an online tournament organised by the .Info website

by the same logic...why are the Kaubeuren tournaments not called World Championships?
why not the Gebroikers tournaments not called World Championships?
or the man vs machine Aegon tournaments?
these were all firsts of their kind and had participants from many countries and yet they were not called World Championships
i dont think they would even think of calling themselves that..because they are not that

i wonder where this idea even came from to begin with?

actually i do not really care if the tournaments are called that on the .info site ..but to write this on Wiki is a different matter entirely(i guess i never noticed it before today)
Wiki is a free encyclopedia for everyone in the world and many visit it

there will be many who will visit the chess computer page and really believe that your tournaments are an official World Championship like the Fide World championships or the WMCCC world championships of the 1980's-1990's

its misleading Nick
pure and simple

yes the knowledge on Wiki is free..but it should not be knowingly misleading

i am sure you can see that Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

the problem Nick is that if the name World Championship means nothing..then why use it?
surely it was not picked out of thin air?

i really dont have a hangup with just any name
if you guys decided to call it the "Peter"championships or the "Wurste" Championships ..that would be fine..

but you know as well as i do that "World Championship" has a very clear and significant meaning
there is no way to justify its use and i dont see why it is used at all if not to make the tournament appear more then it is..
which is simply an online tournament organised by the .Info website

by the same logic...why are the Kaubeuren tournaments not called World Championships?
why not the Gebroikers tournaments not called World Championships?
or the man vs machine Aegon tournaments?
these were all firsts of their kind and had participants from many countries and yet they were not called World Championships
i dont think they would even think of calling themselves that..because they are not that

i wonder where this idea even came from to begin with?

actually i do not really care if the tournaments are called that on the .info site ..but to write this on Wiki is a different matter entirely(i guess i never noticed it before today)
Wiki is a free encyclopedia for everyone in the world and many visit it

there will be many who will visit the chess computer page and really believe that your tournaments are an official World Championship like the Fide World championships or the WMCCC world championships of the 1980's-1990's

its misleading Nick
pure and simple

yes the knowledge on Wiki is free..but it should not be knowingly misleading

i am sure you can see that Regards
Steve

Ok Steve now I think I am beginning to understand your concern although I still do not have the same concern. (Btw you have torn me away from a very important Citrine match )

All you are saying is that only an official World Governing body should have this title. Right? Or are you saying more then this?

Now I will try to explain what I know about the origin of the Title and some of the forum discussion over the past few years that I know of. I am sure some other Schachinfo forum members who know more about Schachinfo and the past can correct me if I state anything incorrectly.

But first let's start with Nick (me). I have a U1400 tournament that I play at home and I enjoy playing it for competitive reasons and at first when I started I called it the U1400 World Championship after all it is for my personal world and I can call it the U1400 World Championship if I want to. Also in reality technically speaking there is not that much wrong with the name since lets say 80% of every machine ever made in U1400 is playing and the ones missing with perhaps just 1 or 2 exceptions are clones of a machine already playing. So in my world of home enjoyment/competitiveness and fantasy I can call it a World Championship there is no one to tell me otherwise. Right?

So now to Schachinfo and Micha a chess computer games enthusiast who owns and plays most of the top machines available creates his own tournaments at home and plays them and calls his tournaments World Championships. After all why not he is living his own World championships at home. I don’t know of anybody who has not done something similar with his or her hobby/game/role-playing world. After all it’s a form of entertainment and beats watching soaps over and over again on TV. Never mind the mind exercises and everything else you might get out of this.

Anyway one day he decides to do something more and he creates a German website with a forum for German chess dedicated enthusiasts so that they can have their own home for discussions. Since he is a perfectionist he works hard at making it a very nice home for his friends and visitors and the site grows and someday someone says "hey since I have this computer and you have that one why don't we do a tournament and see how they play against each other” Great idea! So it gets advertised in this German forum and since this forum is "THE WORLD" for these members the title Online Active Chess WM was used for this tournament and it probably was Micha who named it this and of course the forum members (their world) thought this was great. The words meaning of course ONLINE for playing online matches ACTIVESCHACH for 30 sec/move chess, WM for World Championship and hosted by Schachcomputer.info (a fine point here to note is that it is not called Online Active chess computer world championship nor dedicated chess computer world championship just ACTIVE ONLINE CHESS WM)

Well the first online championship was played in this German forum and of course the results were posted within this forum. But wow look what happened the rest of the world also sees this site after all how many chess sites are there. And a comment/complaint is made about the name not being appropriate and the forum members say hey what the?? What business is it of anyone's what we call our tournament we like the name just as it is thank you and especially since we don't post or advertise anywhere. Why are you criticizing us when you are the one visiting our house? It’s a name we have chosen and we want to keep it.

But I also now that Micha basically wants to please everyone so he has asked the opinion of the forum members there about the name should it be changed and every time it was asked the answer is "no way we like our forum and what we do and say we would like to remain just the way it is, thank you!"

But each year the tournament becomes more popular and more international...so there is the dilemma I don't share. It is still only a title within that Forum not sold or advertised outside that forum other then with what you or I mention elsewhere and I don't see the name dedicated or chess computer in that title either. The world is very welcome there but only as a member with member majority approval would a title change be made. Schachinfo is not a dictatorship.

I think Micha gets critique for something here which is a little off the mark. If an official body comes along and can officially prove that they have the right for that title of Dedicated Chess Computer World Championship then it is available for that body, they don’t have to ask anyone for it. But currently that Governing body does not exist and therefore it is a mute point.

All the best

[Steve B]

All you are saying is that only an official World Governing body should have this title. Right? Or are you saying more then this?

well two things actually ..

firstly .. that only an independent officially recognized governing body (appointed by not members from one site or from one group of friends or admirers but from all interested parties )would have the right to bestow that title
and secondly .. that these tournaments should not be labeled as World Championships ..on Wiki

lets recap how this discussion got started in the first place

you began posting here and talking about your participation in World Championships
i was surprised to learn that there was such a thing and then i quickly realized you meant the .INFO tournaments

so it is not that i came to the site and caused problems but rather that those claims were brought here..

for you to call your personal home basement tournament a World championship or for the moderators of the .info site to call their tournament a world championship is of course silly and this argument only shows that anyone can call whatever they want a "World CHAMPIONSHIP"


it is interesting to know however that this was discussed on .Info and the vote of the members was to go right ahead and call it a World championship anyway..

sort of like the story of the Emperors New Cloths
where he is wearing nothing but all of the loyal subjects pretended he was fully dressed

now this is not so serious really if you keep this tournament to yourself or even to your own forumn and its members
but now you are spreading the news to the outside world Nick
here.. on other forums..and on Wiki

once the outside world is made aware of these claims i think it is understandable if there will be those who do not agree with the title that has been bestowed on these tournaments by those holding the event

now you are no longer making claims to yourself or to your members (preaching to the already confirmed) but rather to the whole world

it is a big step to go from claiming this on your site(or at home to yourself ) and then to do so on Wiki
if you would remove this claim on Wiki personally i would have no problem with you guys calling it whatever you wanted to
personsally i still prefer the "Wurste" tournaments


the fact that no governing body exists still does not make you guys the de facto governing body

the Dutch organizers of the first dedicated tournaments could have called their events the world championships but of course would never even think to do that


to leave these claims on Wiki Nick is to lessen the value of Wiki ..it shows that anything can be posted there by anyone ..even when it is known to not be true

you are working hard to make Wiki accurate and open to all those interested in the hobby..an admirable task..then it should also be important to you that these tournaments are not labeled as World Championships.. on Wiki

Very Best Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

All you are saying is that only an official World Governing body should have this title. Right? Or are you saying more then this?

well two things actually ..

firstly .. that only an independent officially recognized governing body (appointed by not members from one site or from one group of friends or admirers but from all interested parties )would have the right to bestow that title
and secondly .. that these tournaments should not be labeled as World Championships ..on Wiki

lets recap how this discussion got started in the first place

you began posting here and talking about your participation in World Championships
i was surprised to learn that there was such a thing and then i quickly realized you meant the .INFO tournaments

so it is not that i came to the site and caused problems but rather that those claims were brought here..

for you to call your personal home basement tournament a World championship or for the moderators of the .info site to call their tournament a world championship is of course silly and this argument only shows that anyone can call whatever they want a "World CHAMPIONSHIP"


it is interesting to know however that this was discussed on .Info and the vote of the members was to go right ahead and call it a World championship anyway..

sort of like the story of the Emperors New Cloths
where he is wearing nothing but all of the loyal subjects pretended he was fully dressed

now this is not so serious really if you keep this tournament to yourself or even to your own forumn and its members
but now you are spreading the news to the outside world Nick
here.. on other forums..and on Wiki

once the outside world is made aware of these claims i think it is understandable if there will be those who do not agree with the title that has been bestowed on these tournaments by those holding the event

now you are no longer making claims to yourself or to your members (preaching to the already confirmed) but rather to the whole world

it is a big step to go from claiming this on your site(or at home to yourself ) and then to do so on Wiki
if you would remove this claim on Wiki personally i would have no problem with you guys calling it whatever you wanted to
personsally i still prefer the "Wurste" tournaments


the fact that no governing body exists still does not make you guys the de facto governing body

the Dutch organizers of the first dedicated tournaments could have called their events the world championships but of course would never even think to do that


to leave these claims on Wiki Nick is to lessen the value of Wiki ..it shows that anything can be posted there by anyone ..even when it is known to not be true

you are working hard to make Wiki accurate and open to all those interested in the hobby..an admirable task..then it should also be important to you that these tournaments are not labeled as World Championships.. on Wiki

Very Best Regardsa
Steve

My god Steve I am not going to even ask what you do with all your computers, because this is deteriorating into real silliness again. I am trying to explain to you the harmless non comercial way the name came into existance and now you are calling me silly? Do you ever stop labeling people?

Yes I was the one who mentioned it and unmentioned it now is. I called it the World championship and of course since you think it was inapropriate I appologize to you and will not term this International Online as such here in this Forum in the future.

But since we are now cleansing our souls I wonder who should be receiveing apologies for the labels

Let's see.. Wurst cup.... and the several dozen other named labels..

[Steve B]

hi Nick

i did not mean to say you were silly
only that the notion of calling ones home made tournament a World Championship was silly..and i did not think you even meant that seriously but only as an example you were using

as to Wurste...
i thought that was the German word for Sausage?

i picked that word as an example as it is one of the only German words i know


i did not mean the English word "Worst"


i apologize for any misunderstandings caused by my posts

Best Regards
Steve

[Christian]

hi Nick

i did not mean to say you were silly
only that the notion of calling ones home made tournament a World Championship was silly..and i did not think you even meant that seriously but only as an example you were using

as to Wurste...
i thought that was the German word for Sausage?

i picked that word as an example as it is one of the only German words i know


i did not mean the English word "Worst"


i apologize for any misunderstandings caused by my posts

Best Regards
Steve

Steve,

I find your ignorance appalling. You try to compromise the work of enthusiasts who really invest much time in their hooby to keep the dedicated machines alive, and furthermore you are showing your ignorance of a language by making jokes no German would laugh about.
If one does not understand what he is talking about he´d better be quiet.

Speaking in your words:

Being disgusted regards

Christian

[Steve B]

hi Nick

i did not mean to say you were silly
only that the notion of calling ones home made tournament a World Championship was silly..and i did not think you even meant that seriously but only as an example you were using

as to Wurste...
i thought that was the German word for Sausage?

i picked that word as an example as it is one of the only German words i know


i did not mean the English word "Worst"


i apologize for any misunderstandings caused by my posts

Best Regards
Steve

Steve,

I find your ignorance appalling. You try to compromise the work of enthusiasts who really invest much time in their hooby to keep the dedicated machines alive, and furthermore you are showing your ignorance of a language by making jokes no German would laugh about.
If one does not understand what he is talking about he´d better be quiet.

Speaking in your words:

Being disgusted regards

Christian

this was meant as a good natured apology and the truth that i do not know many German words Christian

i of course do not undermine the .info tournaments and i think they are highly interesting ..but i object to the use of the term World Championships on Wiki
as others do..


i think your post is nothing more then a personal attack on me

which i would myself delete as moderator if your attack was against another member however since it is against me i will leave it

however if you continue to make attacks like this against me personally i will lock this thread ..move it to the Moderators forum and ask for the other mods to decide if your posts should be deleted


No Regards
Steve

[Christian]

Well, Steve,

I used these harsh words because in the two occasions I had to deal with you personally I have known you as a VERY HONORABLE PERSON.
So I am disappointed of your view of a group of people to which I belong.

Christian

[Steve B]

Well, Steve,

I used these harsh words because in the two occasions I had to deal with you personally I have known you as a VERY HONORABLE PERSON.
So I am disappointed of your view of a group of people to which I belong.

Christian

and i remember you to also be a very honorable person and very knowledgeable collector Christian
and i have nothing but the HIGHEST RESPECT for the .info site and its members

i have only one point of discussion..

the use of the term...WC.. in Wiki
nothing more..
nothing less..

anyway there is one good thing to come from this discussion..

you registered as a member!

Regards
Steve

[Christian]

anyway there is one good thing to come from this discussion..

you registered as a member!

Regards
Steve

Steve,

yes there is something to it. I very much like the discussions here, usually from my passive point of view.
So I apologize for my harsh words, they were not appropriate.

Christian

[gerold]

anyway there is one good thing to come from this discussion..

you registered as a member!

Regards
Steve

Steve,

yes there is something to it. I very much like the discussions here, usually from my passive point of view.
So I apologize for my harsh words, they were not appropriate.

Christian

Why not get together and play each other from all over the world
and see who is the world champion.
Just a suggestion.
Then post it every where.

Very best to you,

Gerold.