Scisys Companion III pondering

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Tibono2
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Scisys Companion III pondering

Post by Tibono2 »

Hi all,
I recently bought this board as I owned none with a Kaplan/Barnes program.
I found out the time usage quite human-like: using time on tough moves, answering fast on no-brainers. Overall a very pleasant chessboard to play with.
On Schachcomputer.info Wiki I read it does not ponder best expected move during opponent think time, but three best ones.
This seems consistent with the frequent fast answers I noticed, but rather unusual; and assuming the weak hardware (6301Y, 256 RAM bytes) I find this ability quite impressive.
Then I read the same with Cavalier, Turbo 16K, Conquistador, Astral... All from same programmers team.
Does someone know more about this pondering feature? Was it used apart from Kaplan/Barnes programs?
Kind regards,
Tibono
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Tibono2
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Post by Tibono2 »

Well today I sorted this out.

I used this simple position and made my Companion III move as white.

[fen]1b1rk3/4p2p/3q2p1/8/4N3/6P1/6BP/6RK w - - 3 1[/fen]
I used level 3 (15s/move).
Of course it moves NxQ then ponders about black move.
I let from ~20s to several minutes pondering delay before playing each of 5 possible black moves - among which 3 are "good" (taking the knight) & 2 are "bad" (King escapes, losing material).
Whatever the pondering time I let the Companion III benefit from, it always responds immediately to BxN and needs thinking time to answer to RxN or pxN. So Schachcomputer Wiki statement reveals untrue...

Regards,
Tibono
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paulwise3
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Post by paulwise3 »

Hi Tibono,

Interesting test :-)
I have the Cavalier, which is said to be related.
Its manual says it ponders indeed 3 alternatives.
Does your manual not mention this?

Regards, Paul
2024 Special thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12741
2024 Special results and standings: https://schaakcomputers.nl/paul_w/Tourn ... 25_06.html
If I am mistaken, it must be caused by a horizon effect...
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Tibono2
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Post by Tibono2 »

Hi Paul,

no it does not:
"In these levels the computer is programmed to try to anticipate various moves you might make and to calculate its responses for each of them while you are thinking. Thus you may very often get an instant response to your moves."

This sentence could comply with several pondered moves facing one situation, but with one pondered as well, observed over the whole game.

Maybe I should try other positions, such as without a 'king in check' situation.
Regards, Tibono
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Post by Tibono2 »

This one is very simple:

[fen]8/7k/6pp/8/7K/6N1/8/8 w - - 8 1 [/fen]
LV 3 playing white moves Ne4; then ponders only Kg7 - instant response.
Other black moves trigger the Companion III thinking process (checked with 20s pondering time, then 2mn - same result).

R.
Tibono
BrianM
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Post by BrianM »

I have the Saitek Team Mate which is the same hardware and program as the SciSys Companion III.

To get instant response for Kg7, Pg5 and Ph5 in the second example I have to let it ponder for 5 minutes. It is just a slow machine.

Brian
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Post by Tibono2 »

Thanks Bryan for this feedback.
I renewed the second test with 5mn pondering, :( it does not change the result with my CIII.
Maybe the programs are not that equal, I read in the Team Mate manual (thanks to Alain's website) the 15s per move is level 5 for TM, while level 3 for CIII. Which level did you use please?

Anyway the position is rather simple, despite being slow the CIII moves circa 7 to 10 seconds at the set level (3), provides an instant response for Kg7 with as short as 20 seconds pondering, so it should have "made his mind" for all 5 black legal moves in close or less than 100 seconds pondering time - that is what I would expect from such a facility.

Assuming the 3 pondered moves limitation (from Paul's Cavalier manual & Schachcomputer Wiki), 5 minutes pondering lets 100 seconds, 1m40s, per pondered move!
In regards of 15s/move level, this is in favor of deeper thinking, not of instant response :)

Anyone in a position to test his Companion III?
Paul, how long would the Cavalier ponder to deliver additional instant responses?

Looking forward to solve the mystery...
Cheers,
Tibono
BrianM
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Post by BrianM »

I used level 6 = 30 secs/move.

On 15 secs/move I need to let it ponder for 7 mins for Ph5 to be added to the 3 moves.

The manual for the Team Mate does not mention "3 moves" nor is it mentioned in the Saitek catalogues from 1988 and 1990. It is mentioned however for the Cavalier. The Cavalier was replaced by the Portable Advanced Trainer and the "3 moves" was removed from that manual (available on Alain Zanchetta's web site).

It looks like it was a good idea but that is doesn't work very well in practice.

Brian
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Post by bataais »

Hi Eric,

very interesting test! I always wanted to know about this multiple pondering.

Now I did the second position on my Saitek Conquistador, Level 6 (30s), and it took 50s for an instant response,
to the moves Kg7, g5, h5. Same with my 3Mhz Team-Mate.

Also tested it on the Astral, it only played Kg7 as instant response, exactly like your Companion III.

So I believe this feature was added with the new revisions of 1988, Conquistador (3Mhz), TeamMate (2Mhz), Cavalier / Portable Advanced Trainer (2Mhz). They also include a position evaluation and the 8 chess study games.

BTW, only the german manual of the above units mentions the 3 pondered moves, the other languages talk about various moves..

The older versions of 1985 (Turbo 16k (3Mhz), Astral (3Mhz), Express 16K (2Mhz), Companion III (2Mhz) and Tandy 1850) seem to only ponder one move.

Triple Regards,
Michael
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Tibono2
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Post by Tibono2 »

Hello Michael,

thanks for the additional tests, and clarification. Indeed, the birth date seems to matter.

Kind regards,
Eric
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