Ron Nelson Ever Copied, Used , Cloned the Spracklen?

[mclane]

I lean to agreeing with Mike's comments. It seems that Excalibur made their start by first of all marketing CXG and Krypton products both made in China. Krypton seems to be a Brand Name that still belongs to Year Vantage Holdings together with their other Brand Names RYO and Braingames.

Before China became more Westernized it was impossible to direct do business with factories in China, you either had to go through their local Embassies which would arrange meetings for you or even easier get your connections built through Hong Kong. Hence so many products were branded through Hong Kong in the past and probably still today.

So if you look at CXG and Krypton more closely you have all the nucleus for the beginning of the Excalibur brand:

Krypton Regency, Challenge, Jupiter, Pioneer, Crusader, Comet, Alpha, etc etc..

All these are the nucleus on which Excalibur was based on.

Crusader = Excalibur Crusader, which morphed into Saber III & 4.
Legend,Challenger, Regency, morphed into Igor, Ivan, etc..
Probably even Alexandra is a morph from one of those, after all just remove the ponder from Regency, Challenge, Legend, Igor and Ivan and you end up with a similar strength to Alexandra.

All the above were highly configurable with multiple play style settings, it would not be too hard to work with these programs adding features and changing their style settings.

The Factory in China is still selling chess computers today. All you have to do is give them an order with a minimum quantity of 1000 pieces.

I tend to think that Ron Nelson's preoccupation at Excalibur was more in the area of game development ie. in the areas of design and features, testing etc In this area I am sure he and his team did a lot of development to ensure that the computers looked and SEEMED different every year when they were repackaged with the same few base highly configurable chess programs.

Saitek, through owning Mephisto owns Fidelity it would have been a law suit waiting to happen if Excalibur were to take old Fidelity products. That is very unlikely.

Best regards,

Nick

What a nonsense.
Legend is not igor,
I wonder why you still don't see this.

[Fernando]

The last bath of engines that Ron Nelson produced for Excalibur, all the series including Alexandra, Ivan etc, were clearly much stronger than the original harvest of Ron, say, CC3, CC10, CC7, Voice, etc, and even stronger than the first machines produce by the Spracklen for Fidelity, say, chess champion sensory, elite, etc....
Now, which could be the secret of that?
Maybe simply Ron just learned the new techniques that were developed trough the years and that are a commodity these days.
Or...
maybe he made use of the codes of the Spracklen, with or without some extra things coming from that development.
I suppose the codes the Spracklen produced were owned by Fidelity and so, after its demise, by Excalibur.
I have had this suspicions due to certain moves the last Nelson bath play that are equally to what champion played in similar positions AND that you does not find in contemporary engines. One of those old fashion moves is, when the program has nothing to do in his opinion, King from g1 to h1.......
What do you think?

Fern

?

It's simply a matter of search depth.

Old machines no pb and 2 plies or 3.

New machines 6 plies.

No sir.
Chess champion reached easily 4-5 ply in middle game, sometimes 6 too.

[spacious_mind]

What a nonsense.
Legend is not igor,
I wonder why you still don't see this.

Everything about Igor follower of Mirage is Legend other than it's play style. I wonder why you don't see that? With the exception of voice.

[ChessChallenger]

I am the one whose name is on US Patent 4,235,442.
I am the one who programmed every line of code for every chess game produced by Excalibur Electronics. There was no team. Just me.
I designed every schematic, every circuit board, every housing.
I wrote and desktop published every Instruction Manual.
I designed everything about the Excalibur LCD Chess. It's new housing design was later copied by Sony in their Walkman Bean.
I designed and programmed the Excalibur Gametime Chess Clock.

The Excalibur Grandmaster design is totally my work. I wrote the H8 code.
The book openings for all the Excalibur Chess Games was designed by Larry Kaufman. Larry Kaufman is a most brilliant Chess Master that understood computer chess search. He would explain to me how Franz Moerch evaluated positions, just by playing his program. He was incredible. He wrote a list of things for an evaluation function and how to balance it. His piece weightings were different than the Spracklens.

mmm Chess Engines...Look at the published Z80 Sargon code, When the 6502 code was demoed at Fidelity, Dan couldn't stop saying how fast it was.
There was a dramatic software design change. All static eval and fast search,
When I finally saw the source code I cried. It was the most unprofessional program I had ever seen, Because of the Apple II development limitation all comments were skipped. All labels brief. Only Dan could maintain and add code. But Dan explained it was the Attack Bitmaps that was the major improvement. In 1981 at the California ACM Computer Chess Tournament, Kathy introduced me to their friend Ken Thompson. I asked him about his Belle hardware chess machine, and he was quick to explain how the Hardware Attack Bitmaps worked. I realized that attack bitmap approach was now in a Chess Challenger, but in software. I used the Belle Attack Map generation on my H8 program.

[spacious_mind]

Thank you for your explanations, there are a lot of gaps with Excalibur Electronics as unfortunately for us collectors of these dedicated chess computers nothing was ever documented well as to who the actual chess program authors might be for these computers.

Therefore it would be fantastic to finally fill in these gaps and record some history behind these computers. What every dedicated chess collector would like to know more about is who the original chess program author was and follow that lineage through the history of dedicated chess computers.

Excalibur began with selling a range of computers that were produced by Krypton (an Eric White and David Levy Company) and a few others with Novag (whose chess programs would be David Kittinger). At that time everything is a little fuzzy in our knowledge with many gaps, not least because of being unsure on when you (Ron Nelson) joined Excalibur after Mephisto/Saitek.

One of the programs that is discussed a lot by us is the lineage of Mirage - Ivan - Igor - Grandmaster. Especially since Eric White at a Toys and Games Exhibition in Germany told everyone while displaying Mirage that he was planning to sell his baby (quote from Eric White meaning Mirage) to Excalibur for the North American market.

This lineage gap is further compounded with the practical knowledge from playing and testing all these computers that everything about these computers with the exception of style settings, speech and game play seems to have the same origin as Krypton Challenge, Krypton Regency, CXG Legend, CXG Concerto and Accolade, Excalbur Legend II and Excalibur Avenger.

Excalbur Igor seems to be from play tests the exact same root chess program as Mirage whereas Grandmaster does indeed deviate more.

For both of these computers you can however see a complete modernization and overhaul in the computers design to any predecessors.

Since Grandmaster does deviate more in its style of play. Is this a result of the inclusion of the Belle Attack Map Generation that you implemented? Was this enhancement also included in Mirage, Ivan and Igor? As this implementation could explain their complete difference in play behavior to Excalibur Legend II and Excalibur Avenger as well as the other Kryptons and CXG.

On the other ranges of Excalibur computers you can also follow the progression from Distribution to Manufacturing quite well especially with the leaps made in the design changes and programs used from for example Kingmaster III, King Arthur and all the LCD handhelds onwards.

There seems to be 3 or 4 different base chess programs used throughout all the ranges but with continuous changes and enhancements made to new releases. These changes can even be followed in the handheld LCD's with game differences between Models 375, 375-1, 375-2 etc. Am I correct with this?

There are also two other enigma that have us all confused. Excalibur Alexandra followed by Ivan II and Phantom Force seems to be very different to other Excalibur in its play behavior and Excalibur Glass Chess which although the same design as Lexibook does play differently as well.

Sorry for bombarding you with all these questions but as a collector and owner of all Excalibur computers (albeit 3 that I know of) I am of course seeking to know the true history of Excalibur.

Best regards

[Steve B]

Welcome to to the Forum Ron
an honor to have you here

we have been Debating here for years about two Excalibur computers specifically
the GM and The Mirage

i am sorry to make you state it again but i would like to ask
where you the programmer for both or either of these computers?

as you can read from this thread and other threads here.. i have been defending you as the programmer of these computers as a result of email discussions you and i had between the years 2002-2007 or there abouts
perhaps you remember me?

Best Regards
Steve B

[spacious_mind]

There seems to be 3 or 4 different base chess programs used throughout all the ranges but with continuous changes and enhancements made to new releases.

Actually thinking it through, it probably only requires two base chess programs to create the complete unique range of Excalibur with all your knowledge and experience to enhance and improve, which would be a Ponder program and a non Ponder program for the lower strength computers?

Best regards

[ChessChallenger]

Welcome to to the Forum Ron
an honor to have you here

we have been Debating here for years about two Excalibur computers specifically
the GM and The Mirage

i am sorry to make you state it again but i would like to ask
where you the programmer for both or either of these computers?

as you can read from this thread and other threads here.. i have been defending you as the programmer of these computers as a result of email discussions you and i had between the years 2002-2007 or there abouts
perhaps you remember me?

Best Regards
Steve B

Yes, I programmed the Grand Master and The Mirage.

I was starting to look back at my archives and was reminded of my new Grand Master design. Which was completely costed out in Sept 2010. But Excalibur went under, and the go ahead for 2011 intro was cancelled. The goal was to have Grand Master retail at US $120. From the outside it would be virtually identical, but inside a new Auto Sensory scheme using membrane switch technology and super magnets (no reed switches). Cost came in at $31.44/3Kunits

[Steve B]

Yes, I programmed the Grand Master and The Mirage.

thank you for your reply
and so ends a long running debate...

Best Regards
Steve

[ChessChallenger]

History Trivia #1
While Dave Kittinger was still in Alaska, I came upon his MyChess program.
I liked how it used it knights in it's playing style, and saw he was a strong chess player and was programming in Z80. I told Sid Samole we should talk with him. He may have relocated to California by the time we contacted him. But we did, and we flew him to Miami and Sid Samole made a deal with him and they shook hands on it. I took him to lunch afterwards and we discussed technical details. He called a week later to say he was sorry but he had to break his gentleman's agreement since he was going to instead work for the Hong Kong Novag company.
Months later, after Chafitz & Applied Concepts had "screwed" the Spracklens, Kathy called Sid Samole.

History Trivia #2
In 1981 I was at the WMCCC in Travemünde, Germany with Dan & Kathy.
After one of the Commercial Group games Dan "played" with Chess Champion Mark V, he came back upset and taken aback. Mark Taylor had the chutzpah to tell him he had a bug in his (Dan's) code and where it was. When Dan got home he confirmed it.

[Steve B]

thanks for those interesting pieces of trivia
fascinating stuff

i have sent you a private message(PM)
to read it....look to the top of your screen and you will see a link that says..
you have 1 new message
click on it to read it

Best Regards
Steve

[Fernando]

Welcome to to the Forum Ron
an honor to have you here

we have been Debating here for years about two Excalibur computers specifically
the GM and The Mirage

i am sorry to make you state it again but i would like to ask
where you the programmer for both or either of these computers?

as you can read from this thread and other threads here.. i have been defending you as the programmer of these computers as a result of email discussions you and i had between the years 2002-2007 or there abouts
perhaps you remember me?

Best Regards
Steve B

Yes, I programmed the Grand Master and The Mirage.

I was starting to look back at my archives and was reminded of my new Grand Master design. Which was completely costed out in Sept 2010. But Excalibur went under, and the go ahead for 2011 intro was cancelled. The goal was to have Grand Master retail at US $120. From the outside it would be virtually identical, but inside a new Auto Sensory scheme using membrane switch technology and super magnets (no reed switches). Cost came in at $31.44/3Kunits

I wonder, Mr Nelson, If you have given a thought to the idea to perform some kind of comeback to the scene with one of those projects that were not in time before Excalibur demise, or produced by you after that. As you know, Millenium has produced a dedicated unit on the ground of a Lang program and as far as I know, the marketing has been successful.
There are lot of old farts like me and others here all around the world.
I would love to play, say, a Sensory 8 challenger -I have every fidelity you programmed- perhaps greatly improved by the hardware now existent and by your own developments in all these years.
Or an Alexandra that this time computers all the time

Can we expect somethihg of the sort, Mr Nelson?

Fern

[mclane]

Welcome to to the Forum Ron
an honor to have you here

we have been Debating here for years about two Excalibur computers specifically
the GM and The Mirage

i am sorry to make you state it again but i would like to ask
where you the programmer for both or either of these computers?

as you can read from this thread and other threads here.. i have been defending you as the programmer of these computers as a result of email discussions you and i had between the years 2002-2007 or there abouts
perhaps you remember me?

Best Regards
Steve B

If this is really Ron, he can also
Explain the differences between

Chess challenger 10 A / B / C

Chess challenger sensory voice

None of the machine has permanent brain,
And mainly used z80 CPUs ( with the exception of challenger 10 C using older
8088 CPU first used in challenger 1-3).

When spracklen were hired for fidelity
The CPU changed into 6502 and permanent brain was used.


IMO There is not much difference between igor/ grandmaster.

chess champion Mark v is very selective, while fidelity (spracklen) programs are not.
Overall I see no big change between mark v from 1981 and later cxg Sphinx on 68000 hardware with Sphinx 40/50.
IMO Both programs are very selective and only the hardware has changed.

[IanO]

History Trivia #1
While Dave Kittinger was still in Alaska, I came upon his MyChess program.
I liked how it used it knights in it's playing style, and saw he was a strong chess player and was programming in Z80. I told Sid Samole we should talk with him. He may have relocated to California by the time we contacted him. But we did, and we flew him to Miami and Sid Samole made a deal with him and they shook hands on it. I took him to lunch afterwards and we discussed technical details. He called a week later to say he was sorry but he had to break his gentleman's agreement since he was going to instead work for the Hong Kong Novag company.
Months later, after Chafitz & Applied Concepts had "screwed" the Spracklens, Kathy called Sid Samole.

History Trivia #2
In 1981 I was at the WMCCC in Travemünde, Germany with Dan & Kathy.
After one of the Commercial Group games Dan "played" with Chess Champion Mark V, he came back upset and taken aback. Mark Taylor had the chutzpah to tell him he had a bug in his (Dan's) code and where it was. When Dan got home he confirmed it.

Oh, these are some juicy tidbits! To think, Fidelity was just that close to becoming the stable for Kittinger engines.

I just want to say thank you Ron for your long programming and design career. I grew up as a kid chess player teething on your Chess Challenger 7. That thing was built like a brick!

And now that I'm coaching kids, I got them a used Igor as a practice partner to aspire to. The low-depth levels, coaching features, and silly sound effects do catch their attention and give them a fighting chance, since the 12MHz H8 is so much faster than Ye Olde Z80! (Say, do you know who was the "voice of Igor"?)

Ian Osgood

[paulwise3]

Great to hear from one of the legends of dedicated computer chess programming!
And for what it's worth: I am very glad and satisfied with my Excalibur Grandmaster

Best regards,
Paul