Even More about Nelson..

[spacious_mind]

Sorry I might be adding to confusion by saying programmer since there is no doubt that Ron Nelson programmed. The unresolved questions at Excalibur are:

1) Chess Engine Author!
2) If yes which computers

We always seem to argue around Mirage, Igor, Ivan and Grandmaster. these are totally different to the computers that Excalibur sold in their last dozen years of existence. The programs last sold are totally different to Mirage etc.

Therefore if any argument would hold any weight regarding Program Author it would be the chess engine that was used in the last 10 or so years of their existence. This engine is totally different to Mirage and Co.

I personally don't believe that any Excalibur engines bear a Ron Nelson Authorship.

Best regards

[spacious_mind]

I don't agree with chess engine programmer at all that has not been clearly stated by anyone.

Best regards

very clearly stated..three times now
twice by Bryan and once by me
i consider your refusal to accept the obvious fact that Nelson was the engine programmer for Excalibur as nothing more then unreasonable denial



there are folks who deny the holocaust
they deny that we landed a man on the moon
they deny that terrorists bombed the twin towers on 9/11
they deny that Obama was born in the US
all disregarding the evidence
we call them..,Birthers,Truthers..Deniers
sadly at this point i think thats were your opinion(and others who still cant admit that Nelson was the Excalibur engine programmer) regarding this issue belongs

you can have the last word about this Nick as i consider the discussion unreasonable at this point

Best Regards
Steve

Hi Steve,
I don't believe in blind faith. And ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING from the proponents of Ron Nelson being a CHESS AUTHOR is blind faith without one word of documented fact. You know and I know that we honor the Author of a program, I have still not seen one single piece of evidence that Ron Nelson is the Author of an Excalibur chess engine. I guarantee we could go to the Excalibur Hall of Fame together and we would not even find one piece of evidence to support Authorship there either.

We know where the Grandmaster's engine originates from and therefore the Engine Authorship does not come from any former Ron Nelson devices.

I agree there is doubt about the later programs and you could easily convince me that Ron Nelson authored the engine. That would be a little easier to follow given the timeline.

I notice Thorsten just made another accurate observation that Igor etc Ponder. So again why would Ron Nelson for the very first time in his life author an engine that Ponders, create a half way decent program and then never use it again? Why would Excalibur buy a pondering Ron Nelson's program from Eric White and never use it again?

Ron Nelson does not have a split personality therefore for the proponents of an unsubstantiated theory to work you will have to choose one or the other. Ron Nelson authored Mirage or Ron Nelson authored everything else thereafter at Excalibur. Pick one! You can't pick both.

Also bear in mind if you pick the former then it is not me that is disclaiming what Al Lawrence says.

The debate continues to go on because proponents of Nostalgia want the former to be true and therefore ignore all the documented facts in Magazines, in User Manuals and in the computer in order to hang to being right.

Therefore the realists amongst us have to keep disputing fantasy to ensure that history does not get rewritten by some roman emperor.

Best regards

[Mike Watters]

and Eric White worked for CXG at the same time Nelson and Samole made heavy investments in the company and most probably owned it in part
probably White got the program from Nelson
White and Levy suddenly produce a robot using the same robot technology that Fidelity Used in their Phantom Robots
cmon..its obvious that Nelson's hands are all over this

Billy Preston Sends His Regards
Steve

Whilst the talk is about rewriting history let us get the facts straight about who owned what in Hong Kong. The following is taken from Hein Velhuis's article on Krypton, it gives the owners of CXG, its founder and later companies. This information tallies with contemporary accounts and subsequent evidence I have seen including email correspondence with Ken Cohen's son and David Levy.

History Eric White
1979-1980 Cassia.................................... Eric White (Chess Mate)
1981-1984 White & Allcock Ltd................ Eric White & Ken Cohen (MultiTech)
1984-1991 Newcrest Technology (CXG Systems S.A.)...... Eric White & Ken Cohen (Sphinx 1987)
1991-1993 National Telecommunications System Ltd..... Eric White (Sphinx)
1994 Krypton Ltd..................................... David Levy (Krypton)
1995-1996 Timorite Ltd............................ David Levy & Eric White (Krypton)
1997-2001 Timorite Ltd. / Systema Leisure Ltd........... David Levy & Eric White (Krypton / Systema)

I have yet to see any evidence that says that Samole or Nelson were major or controlling shareholders, of any of these companies. It should be no surprise that they had a stake because these companies built large numbers of Fidelitys and Excaliburs. As far as I am aware Eric White and Ken Cohen were always the major shareholders and men in control of CXG.

Right through the 1980s and 1990s Eric White would have had access to chess engines and would hardly have needed one from Ron Nelson. Also the robot technology used in Fidelity's came from MB and Intelligent Software originally.

All the best
Mike

http://www.schaakcomputers.nl/hein_veld ... mation.pdf

[Steve B]

I have yet to see any evidence that says that Samole or Nelson were major or controlling shareholders, of any of these companies. It should be no surprise that they had a stake because these companies built large numbers of Fidelitys and Excaliburs.

i said they probably had an ownership interest i didnt say they definately had one..so there are no facts to get straight
but we already discussed this once before...didnt we?
why you choose to harp on this immaterial point is beyond me
as i said before.. where i come from and from the experience in my line of work if you invest big bucks in a company you wind up calling the shots which is the only thing that matters as far as i am concerned


the information that Nelson and Samole invested heavily comes from me via my conversations with Nelson and as far as i know is the only time this information has been divulged anywhere

that is the salient point here regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

I have yet to see any evidence that says that Samole or Nelson were major numbers of Fidelitys and Excaliburs.

i said they probably had an ownership interest i didnt say they definately had one..so there are no facts to get straight
but we already discussed this once before...didnt we?or controlling shareholders, of any of these companies. It should be no surprise that they had a stake because these companies built large
why you choose to harp on this immaterial point is beyond me
as i said before.. where i come from and from the experience in my line of work if you invest big bucks in a company you wind up calling the shots which is the only thing that matters as far as i am concerned


the information that Nelson and Samole invested heavily comes from me via my conversations with Nelson and as far as i know is the only time this information has been divulged anywhere

that is the salient point here regards
Steve

Hi Steve,

That you have received this information I don't dispute at all. Based on you previously disclosing this, there is a theory or fantasy if you wish that I have, that Excalibur got something out of CXG. Many CXG computers follow a different Branch to Krypton, or were left on the shelf. Maybe something like Computachess III or Enterprise S was incorporated into Excalibur with the newer chips available these would have been quite interesting. But this theory is flawed too because these computers do have the ability to Ponder. Maybe by then Ron Nelson did have the time to author a new non pondering engine which was later used all the time. Who knows.

Best regards

[Steve B]

I notice Thorsten just made another accurate observation that Igor etc Ponder.

I Especially like this accurate observation by Thor:

The thing about this engine is IMO that levy was not capable to make progress with his engine although using 68000 CPU with 8 MHz and a lot of ram in the Sphinx. There is not much difference between mark V and Sphinx 68000 program. I wonder why the team was not able to make significant progress over the years, in opposite e.g. To Ron Nelson and his program in grandmaster / igor.

taken from this thread ...

http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=70263#70263

Hes got that right regards
Steve

[Steve B]

The debate continues to go on because proponents of Nostalgia want the former to be true and therefore ignore all the documented facts in Magazines, in User Manuals and in the computer in order to hang to being right.

Therefore the realists amongst us have to keep disputing fantasy to ensure that history does not get rewritten by some roman emperor.

Best regards

We both fully understand what we think of each others opinion on this subject
i think you are in denial given two first person accounts proving Nelson was the Engine Author for Excalibur
first person accounts will always trump wild speculation and ad hoc theories

you think i am like a Roman Emperor spewing forth misinformation and its your job here to keep the folks from being misinformed
actually i could care less what you think as i am sure you could care less what i think

i do suggest though that the conversation remain civil and not turn into ad hominem personal attacks

Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

The debate continues to go on because proponents of Nostalgia want the former to be true and therefore ignore all the documented facts in Magazines, in User Manuals and in the computer in order to hang to being right.

Therefore the realists amongst us have to keep disputing fantasy to ensure that history does not get rewritten by some roman emperor.

Best regards

We both fully underatand what we thinf of each others opinion on this subject
i think you are in denial given two first person accounts proving Nelson was the Engine Author for Excalibur
first person accounts will always trump wild speculation and ad hoc theories

you think i am a Roman Emperour spewing forth misinformation and its your job here to keep the folks from being misinformed

actually i could care less what you think as i am sure you could care less what i think

i do suggest though that the conversation remain civil and not turn into ad hominem personal attacks
Regards
Steve

You know what is really funny and worthy of a good chuckle is that every proponent wants to give credit for Mirage and really doesn't care where the other ones later came from. I guess it is much more important to hand out the credit on the one that we all deep down in our hearts know that he had no chance of being the Author for. The crappies are not his it is someone else and not important so long as Mirage is his

That if nothing else totally contradicts what Ron Nelson told you and what Al Lawrence might be alluding to.

So us non believers are wrong, Ron Nelsons comments to you are wrong, Al Lawrence is wrong, magazines are wrong, User Manuals are wrong, the insides of computers are wrong BUT wait for it!!! the believers are right!

Ok I'll buy that!! Sign me up!

Best regards

[spacious_mind]

We both fully understand what we think of each others opinion on this subject
i think you are in denial given two first person accounts proving Nelson was the Engine Author for Excalibur
first person accounts will always trump wild speculation and ad hoc theories

you think i am like a Roman Emperor spewing forth misinformation and its your job here to keep the folks from being misinformed
actually i could care less what you think as i am sure you could care less what i think

i do suggest though that the conversation remain civil and not turn into ad hominem personal attacks

Regards
Steve

Hi Steve,

I think this post one needs a little clearing up. I have not denied your sources, neither have I denied Bryan's sources. I just don't think they have sufficient content to make them the invaluable source that you interpret them to be.

Regarding the Roman Emperor comment and history, this responsibility applies to all of us.

I don't see any personal attacks from my part at all. Unless someone chooses to take them into their heart as personal. I disagree and I fight for what I believe in as you do.

Now if you read back at comments you have made throughout various posts, about denial, delusions, etc.. well I think that perhaps you have been pushing these gentlemanly boundaries a lot harder than I have.

ps. lets be clear, my regards for you are of the highest level, but that doesn't mean that we will always see eye to eye on everything.

Best regards

[Steve B]

regarding the Roman Emperor comment and history, this responsibility applies to all of us.

Now if you read back at comments you have made throughout various posts, about denial, delusions, etc.. well I think that perhaps you have been pushing these gentlemanly boundaries a lot harder than I have.

Thanks Nick
i took the Roman Emperor comment as a personal swipe at me
if you did not intend it that way then i stand corrected

when i said the discussion should remain civil sans any personal attack i was actually referring to the both of us..not just you


Very Best Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

Besides I blame Fernando

He is the one who stirred the pot again with all these new Nelson posts that he created.

He must have a lot of fun out of these debates.

Best regards

[Steve B]

Besides I blame Fernando

He is the one who stirred the pot again with all these new Nelson posts that he created.

He must have a lot of fun out of these debates.

Best regards

Exactly
he creates yet another post about Nelson and then sits back and laughs it up when the forum erupts in flames
the joke is on him though..
little does he know that the Septennial he paid huge bucks for was thoroughly corroded inside ..practically green from oxidation .. and i exposed the program eprom to intense light in an effort to erase it
its merely a matter of time until that baby goes..

Belly Up Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

Besides I blame Fernando

He is the one who stirred the pot again with all these new Nelson posts that he created.

He must have a lot of fun out of these debates.

Best regards

Exactly
he creates yet another post about Nelson and then sits back and laughs it up when the forum erupts in flames
the joke is on him though..
little does he know that the Septennial he paid huge bucks for was thoroughly corroded inside ..practically green from oxidation .. and i exposed the program eprom to intense light in an effort to erase it
its merely a matter of time until that baby goes..

Belly Up Regards
Steve

Yep that's what he does. As punishment next post that he creates I will not click on it

Especially after his last post about that poor old lady, being so deceived by that lecherous old man. I wonder if that is a true story?

[Steve B]

Yep that's what he does. As punishment next post that he creates I will not click on it

Especially after his last post about that poor old lady, being so deceived by that lecherous old man. I wonder if that is a true story?

my guess is he cut n pasted that joke from somewhere on the net
some dirty ol man pervert site or something
lol Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

Yep that's what he does. As punishment next post that he creates I will not click on it

Especially after his last post about that poor old lady, being so deceived by that lecherous old man. I wonder if that is a true story?

my guess is he cut n pasted that joke from somewhere on the net
some dirty ol man pervert site or something
lol Regards
Steve

LOL, you might be right, I was thinking that maybe it was a true Fernando experience.. lol