The Ultimate Challenge - Secret Discussion Thread

Hetman · Post by **Hetman** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:54 am

Hi,

my vote would be for 6... Be7 or 6...Ba7 not for the others possibilities.
May be we shall introduce 'negative vote' either.
Rgds
Hetman

turbojuice1122 · Post by **turbojuice1122** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:01 am

Hetman wrote:Hi,

my vote would be for 6... Be7 or 6...Ba7 not for the others possibilities.
May be we shall introduce 'negative vote' either.
Rgds
Hetman

A negative vote--a wonderful idea! But still it must be true that the sum of the absolute values of all votes must add up to 1. In that case, perhaps I could change my vote to 50% ...Ba7, -10% ...Be7, -40% ...Bb6

Linus · Post by **Linus** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:28 pm

Hetman wrote:Hi,

I am returning to my suggestion we shall check who from big ones has been playing 7.. Bb6, who 7... Ba7 ?
I do not mean computer vs computer games but human games aided or unaided directly by comp.
We shall to choose leading games.

Rgds
Hetman

According to my database the highest rated player to ever play 6...Ba7 was GM Ulf Andersson (SWE, 2803) in a game played against Hans Marcus Elwert (GER). 6...Ba7 has been played by very good correspondence players like Thomas Raupp (GER, 2614), and Wolfgang Rohde (GER, 2556).

I also found a couple of games where a 2500+ rated player chose 6...Bb6 (one game corr one OTB, both won by black).

Raziel · Post by **Raziel** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:42 pm

6...Ba7

Hetman · Post by **Hetman** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:15 pm

turbojuice1122 wrote:
In that case, perhaps I could change my vote to 50% ...Ba7, -10% ...Be7, -40% ...Bb6

I am not so sure if the Ba7 is so much better then Be7 because the Ba7 is weakning the King side.
I hope that you have found the way to compensate that. I do not know the variation so I can only hope.

Rgds
Hetman

Hetman · Post by **Hetman** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:19 pm

Linus wrote:
According to my database the highest rated player to ever play 6...Ba7 was GM Ulf Andersson (SWE, 2803) in a game played against Hans Marcus Elwert (GER). 6...Ba7 has been played by very good correspondence players like Thomas Raupp (GER, 2614), and Wolfgang Rohde (GER, 2556).

I also found a couple of games where a 2500+ rated player chose 6...Bb6 (one game corr one OTB, both won by black).

Thanks for info. Here I have found one 'big one' U. Andersson. OTB and CC GM. I hope his opponent in the game was high rated, too.

Rgds
Hetman

DarienSar · Post by **DarienSar** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:05 pm

I mentioned the game of Kasparov playing black against Deep Junior, which continued 6... Ba7 7. c4 Nc6 8. Nc3 d6 9. O-O Nge7 10. Re1 O-O 11. Be3 e5 12. Nd5 a5 13. Rc1 a4 14. Bxa7 Rxa7 15. Nd2 Nd4 16. Qh5 Ne6...

I also found three games by Rublevsky (his rating at the time was 2686). He defended to draw against Svidler (2727) and Naiditsch (2574) in Dortmund 2004. Later that year he won with black against Karjakin (2591).

I found more games with a win for black after 6... Be7 (one of them in the same tournament as above, Svidler won with black against Naiditsch), but after replaying some of those games it seems that all those wins rely on some minor mistake from white (e.g. in a game won by Topalov, white traded a bishop for a pawn for better attacking options, but Topalov's accurate defense allowed him to neutralize the attacks and then use the material advantage to win). I hope at least one of us will find the lines that take advantage of a mistake by Harvey and Sebi (if they make one), but we cannot build a plan based on that. That's why I am still voting for Ba7.

overtond · Post by **overtond** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:15 pm

7.c4 is not the best line for white; I believe 7.Qg4 to provide the most active play. If 7.c4 then Ne7 would be a better plan to the example give where black continued Nc6.

DarienSar · Post by **DarienSar** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:59 pm

I am not sure they will go with Qg4, overtond, but I agree with your suggestions in a previous post. It looks like 6... Ba7 will win this vote, so let's start thinking about these possible continuations:

Code: Select all

7. Qe2 Nc6
7. Nc3 Nc6
7. c4  Nc6 
7. Qg4 Nf6 
7. O-O Ne7

Let's not cast premature votes for our 7th move, but let's discuss what lines may follow from these and why we may prefer one over the others.

Dylan Sharp · Post by **Dylan Sharp** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:32 pm

The moves have been played and this is the new situation:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. Bd3 Bc5 6. Nb3 Ba7 7. O-O
*

[fen]rnbqk1nr/bp1p1ppp/p3p3/8/4P3/1N1B4/PPP2PPP/RNBQ1RK1 b kq - 0 7[/fen]

kirk · Post by **kirk** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:03 am

Dylan Sharp wrote:The moves have been played and this is the new situation:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. Bd3 Bc5 6. Nb3 Ba7 7. O-O
*

[fen]rnbqk1nr/bp1p1ppp/p3p3/8/4P3/1N1B4/PPP2PPP/RNBQ1RK1 b kq - 0 7[/fen]

Might as well open up the Castle Lane with Ng8-e7

Terry McCracken · Post by **Terry McCracken** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:07 am

Dylan Sharp wrote:The moves have been played and this is the new situation:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. Bd3 Bc5 6. Nb3 Ba7 7. O-O
*

[fen]rnbqk1nr/bp1p1ppp/p3p3/8/4P3/1N1B4/PPP2PPP/RNBQ1RK1 b kq - 0 7[/fen]

7..Ne7

Hydra Sends it's Regards...

overtond · Post by **overtond** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:27 am

7... Ne7

one possible continuation . . .

8.c4 d6 Qe2 e5 equal chances for black

Hetman · Post by **Hetman** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:40 pm

Hi,

I would say, I do not 'feel' that position.
Black are standing very low and has developed only one piece. White has: castled, developed 2 pieces and has the space advantage and manouvering advantage on the Kingside.

I suppose that Black play shall be based on tactics but it is could be not very reliable in cc play with computers aid.
U. Andersson has played that it is good sign, he was the positional player.
I think that games of positional players are good pattern for us.

What are Black 'pluses' ?

Rgds
Hetman

Linus · Post by **Linus** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:48 pm

7...Ne7, not a lot of choices here.

In a game Hans-Marcus Elwert (GER, 2685) vs. Ulf Andersson (SWE, 2803) white got rid of the Ba7 quickly with 8.Qe2 d6 9.Be3 Bxe3 10.Qxe3.

The game ended in a draw BTW.