Hi
I have a question for Mark:
According to the amazing improvement of Rybka and Zap Zanzibar under 64 bit (almost 100 Elo points), are you developping a 64 bit version of Hiarcs? It wolud be great!
Warm regards
HIARCS 64 bit?
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Antonio_Espinosa
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Harvey Williamson
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Re: HIARCS 64 bit?
Hi Antonio,Antonio_Espinosa wrote:Hi
I have a question for Mark:
According to the amazing improvement of Rybka and Zap Zanzibar under 64 bit (almost 100 Elo points), are you developping a 64 bit version of Hiarcs? It wolud be great!
Warm regards
We did release a 64 bit version of x54 which was in the Hiarcs 10 series. It did not show a great speed up.
Rybka snd Zap do get a huge benefit from 64 bit mainly because they are new 64 bit programs from which a 32 bit version is made.
Most other programs are 32 bit and then a 64bit compile is made. To answer your question 64 bit is certainly on our list of things to do and as soon as there is some news we will let you know.
Best Wishes,
Harvey
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BigBen
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Antonio_Espinosa
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Re: HIARCS 64 bit?
Ok, thanks for this exhaustive answerHarvey Williamson wrote:Hi Antonio,Antonio_Espinosa wrote:Hi
I have a question for Mark:
According to the amazing improvement of Rybka and Zap Zanzibar under 64 bit (almost 100 Elo points), are you developping a 64 bit version of Hiarcs? It wolud be great!
Warm regards
We did release a 64 bit version of x54 which was in the Hiarcs 10 series. It did not show a great speed up.
Rybka snd Zap do get a huge benefit from 64 bit mainly because they are new 64 bit programs from which a 32 bit version is made.
Most other programs are 32 bit and then a 64bit compile is made. To answer your question 64 bit is certainly on our list of things to do and as soon as there is some news we will let you know.
Best Wishes,
Harvey
Regards and best wishes
64bit Hiarcs
Hi ,
I guess a real 64 bit chess engine from Mark would be like starting again from scratch since a large proportion of the code would need to be re-written to use 64 bit boads etc....If this is the case I wonder how much of the personality of the Hiarcs we know and love would remain it might even need a new name - now there`s a competition for the future !
I agree that 64 and smp may well be the future but i guess the focus is on what pays the bills and seeing the interest in the palm version of hiarcs i wonder if this is where the largest commercial opportunity exist
Whatever happens i am sure that like all good things it will be worth the wait and untill then i can keep trying to beat the 32 bit version ! ( or for a real challenge i try to beat Crafty )
PS. Please ensure all good wishes and praise go to Mark and abuse to Harvey - its what keeps me happy
Happy days
Phil
I guess a real 64 bit chess engine from Mark would be like starting again from scratch since a large proportion of the code would need to be re-written to use 64 bit boads etc....If this is the case I wonder how much of the personality of the Hiarcs we know and love would remain it might even need a new name - now there`s a competition for the future !
I agree that 64 and smp may well be the future but i guess the focus is on what pays the bills and seeing the interest in the palm version of hiarcs i wonder if this is where the largest commercial opportunity exist
Whatever happens i am sure that like all good things it will be worth the wait and untill then i can keep trying to beat the 32 bit version ! ( or for a real challenge i try to beat Crafty )
PS. Please ensure all good wishes and praise go to Mark and abuse to Harvey - its what keeps me happy
Happy days
Phil
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BigBen
I wonder where the commercial sweet spot is regarding 64bit? How many customers are running a 64bit OS?
My intuition says that probably most of the customers for any chess engine are probably running a dual core machine with XP and can't actually run a 64bit app. I'm not sure that this situation will get any better with Vista 64 and we're probably looking at Vista's replacement before 64bit becomes truly mainstream? For sure there are the hardcore element with quads/octals running xp/vista 64 blazing a trail for the rest of us to follow but a handful of sales doesn't pay the bills!
Would be interesting to get some feedback for sales of chess engines versus their rating position too, is being no.1 really that important as a business? Don't must of us have three or four commercial engines anyway as the perfect engine hasn't been written yet?
Maybe it's just the accountant in me?!
I'm not sure how much effort would be involved in re-writing Hiarcs for 64bit or indeed if it's structures would benefit in the same way that other engines do? Perhaps Mark or Harvey could comment on the challenges of making the move to 64bit and the estimated effort to make Hiarcs 64mp a reality? and perhaps a world champion
My intuition says that probably most of the customers for any chess engine are probably running a dual core machine with XP and can't actually run a 64bit app. I'm not sure that this situation will get any better with Vista 64 and we're probably looking at Vista's replacement before 64bit becomes truly mainstream? For sure there are the hardcore element with quads/octals running xp/vista 64 blazing a trail for the rest of us to follow but a handful of sales doesn't pay the bills!
Would be interesting to get some feedback for sales of chess engines versus their rating position too, is being no.1 really that important as a business? Don't must of us have three or four commercial engines anyway as the perfect engine hasn't been written yet?
Maybe it's just the accountant in me?!
I'm not sure how much effort would be involved in re-writing Hiarcs for 64bit or indeed if it's structures would benefit in the same way that other engines do? Perhaps Mark or Harvey could comment on the challenges of making the move to 64bit and the estimated effort to make Hiarcs 64mp a reality? and perhaps a world champion
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BigBen
Hi,
I think if you want to compete in the Freestyle events or simply play engine v engine matches say in the playchess engine room AND WANT TO BE COMPETITIVE then you need to run a 64 bit OS ... If not then 32 bit is fine ....
Rybka has a 60-70% NPS increase going from 32bit to 64bit, I dont know what this will equate to in terms of ELO points but I bet someone will know
Regards
Tony
I think if you want to compete in the Freestyle events or simply play engine v engine matches say in the playchess engine room AND WANT TO BE COMPETITIVE then you need to run a 64 bit OS ... If not then 32 bit is fine ....
Rybka has a 60-70% NPS increase going from 32bit to 64bit, I dont know what this will equate to in terms of ELO points but I bet someone will know
Regards
Tony
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Harvey Williamson
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A 60% speed up is worth about 30 elo. When you go from 1 cpu to 2 and double the speed if you look at most rating lists you gain about 50 elo.BigBen wrote:Hi,
I think if you want to compete in the Freestyle events or simply play engine v engine matches say in the playchess engine room AND WANT TO BE COMPETITIVE then you need to run a 64 bit OS ... If not then 32 bit is fine ....
Rybka has a 60-70% NPS increase going from 32bit to 64bit, I dont know what this will equate to in terms of ELO points but I bet someone will know
Regards
Tony
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Andreas Guettinger
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The problem is that this comparision is misleading. 64bit engines like Rybka use special technologies (like bitboards) optimised for 64bit. But these technologie don't run well on 32bit systems, and can take a significant speed hit on 32bit systems compared to engines originally written for 32bit.BigBen wrote:Hi,
I think if you want to compete in the Freestyle events or simply play engine v engine matches say in the playchess engine room AND WANT TO BE COMPETITIVE then you need to run a 64 bit OS ... If not then 32 bit is fine ....
Rybka has a 60-70% NPS increase going from 32bit to 64bit, I dont know what this will equate to in terms of ELO points but I bet someone will know
Regards
Tony
So rewriting the engine form 32bit to 64bit can easily result in zero speed gain.
regards,
Andy
Andy
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BigBen
Hi,
Most people I think who would get the 64 bit version would also be useing a 64bit OS (otherwise whats the point?) ...
With the technology available you need to try and take advantage of it, I have contacted both Convekta and Chessbase to ask if there future database programs will be 64 bit or prob more importantly support MP especially when dealing with databases with over 5 million games but it has been met with muted response.
Regards
Most people I think who would get the 64 bit version would also be useing a 64bit OS (otherwise whats the point?) ...
With the technology available you need to try and take advantage of it, I have contacted both Convekta and Chessbase to ask if there future database programs will be 64 bit or prob more importantly support MP especially when dealing with databases with over 5 million games but it has been met with muted response.
Regards