polgar 5 Mhz to polgar 10 Mhz

[ricard60]

I am upgrading my 5 Mhz polgar to 10 Mhz. For this i have the following IC:

CPU 10 Mhz W65C02S6TPG-14
RAM WS6264LLPG-70 (70 ns)
EPROM 27C512 loaded with 10 Mhz version.
10 Mhz crystal.

The 5 Mhz polgar module has the following IC:

CPU 5 Mhz G65SC02
RAM SRM2264 LC-10 (100 ns)
EPROM 27C512 loaded with the 1.1 version
4.9 Mhz crystal

I have done the following tests:

# - CPU (MHz) - RAM (ns) - EPROM version - Works ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 10 - 100 - 1.1 - ok
2 - 10 - 70 - 1.1 - ok
3 - 10 - 70 - 10 - LED flashing problem
4 - 5 - 70 - 10 - ok
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Also in the configuration number 4 sometimes just after i turn it on and press the FCT button i see this image:

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8845/epromv10mhz.jpg

The right image must be:

http://img443.imageshack.us/i/epromv11.jpg/

To solve this i take the RAM out for some minutes and then put it back in. The board has a battery but i do not take it out because is weld it.


1)Why is this?
2)Why the configuration # 3 does not work (polgar 10 Mhz) and it does work at 10 Mhz with (1.1) version?. 3) I have an exclusive board with battery option. Do i need a special exclusive board for this 10 Mhz software?

4)Could this be an EPROM (V 10 Mhz) problem?

5) Is it a power supply problem?



Best regards
Ricardo

[Kostea]

Hi Ricardo,

I recall reading on a chess computer forum that the genuine 10 MHz Polgar module requires a special Exclusive board with a modified power supply.
I will let others who own such a set up to comment from their personal experience.

My best guess is that since you don't have a genuine 10 MHz, and you're only trying to upgrade the hardware and software of a 5 MHz module, then the next step would be to try using the module with a power supply that provides more Amps than the current one. In CPU datasheets, some you see something like ' 10 mA/MHz'. Meaning that the CPU consumes 10 mA for every MHz of frequency. I'm pretty sure that your faster CPU uses more juice than the slower one.

I don't known the specs of the standard Exclusive board power supply.
Let's take an example. Let's say that the standard Exclusive power supply is a 9 V/300 mA. You would need to test the upgraded Polgar module with a 9 V/1 Amp power supply, just to be on the safe side.
If it works, then for having a long term stability and reliability of module you will have to supersize the power supply in all areas where it might have components (the exterior adapter, the inside of board, or if it has a separate power module).

The reason you won't need the special board is because you do not have the genuine 10 MHz module. Maybe that one has a modified schematic, or different connections at the module connector, and that's why it would need the special board + module combination.

I myself have an universal power supply that can be fine tuned with knobs to the desired output voltage. I would open the Polgar module and solder 2 wires directly to the circuit board on the (+) and (-), and test it that way. Please make sure you use the correct voltage value and if it needs to be stabilized.


You got the power,
Kostea

[Steve B]

Hi Ricardo,

I recall reading on a chess computer forum that the genuine 10 MHz Polgar module requires a special Exclusive board with a modified power supply.

Hi Kostea
well my Polgar 10 runs just fine in several of my work-a-day Exclusive boards and with a normal power supply
in fact it also runs fine on 5 C cell batteries
some of the very early Exclusive boards were made to only take 8 bit modules and will not take 16/32 modules ...the so-called pre "S" boards
they might not run the Polgar 10 .. but i'm not sure about that

Exclusive "S" Regards
Steve

[ricard60]

Hi Kostea,
I have that same model of exclusive board that Steve has (batteries option model) and it dont run on batteries niether on an AC adapter. Steve please send me the specifications of that AC adaptor that comes with that model of exclusive board. When i bought that board i believe they sold me an AC adaptor that are not for that model. These are the spacifications of the one i have right now:

plug in class 2 transformer

input:120 v 60 Hz 12W
output: 9 v 500 ma

polgar 10 Mhz regards
Ricardo

[ricard60]

This is the PM that Steve wrote to me with the specifications of the transformer:

sure the adaptor i use for the same board is the Mephisto HGN 5504A
120V
8V
600 mA

BI-Polar Regards
Steve

Mine is 500 ma. So maybe i am lack of 100 ma current.

maybe wrong transformer regards
Ricardo

[Kostea]

Ricardo,

Weird power supply. It says 12 W on it and it is rated 9 V / 500 mA only?

I = P/U = 12/9 = 1.3 Amps ( I=electric current; P=power ; U=voltage)

At least 1 Amp should take. Now of course no manufacturer would stamp the maximum current specs on the power supply so to avoid encouraging people to abuse it, but they should print a 75 % ratio, which is 9 V / 1000 mA.

I mentioned the power supply, so that a such a simple cause not be overlooked. There is nothing more annoying than to chase your tail for days and find out that it was power supply related.

If you own a Mephisto Berlin, that one has a good/strong power supply to use for testing.

If the power supply testing does not solve the issues, then the ROM ver. 10 is the next logical step. From your testing listed in the original post, it looks like the module acts up whenever the new ROM is used. How did you get the new ROM? If someone gave you a copy from an original ROM, then that person probably did compare between the original and copy. Whenever I burn ROMs I doublecheck to make sure the original file on PC compare 100 % and checksum the same as the data in ROM after copying.
Is there any way to get in touch with that person, maybe he/she can use your ROM in their module to verify it's working fine.

Mentioning this just in case, was the ROM handled with care so that it was not damaged by electrostatic discharge. Or make sure the new ROM pins do make good contacts in socket.

I can think of one other thing. Changing the system clock/quartz can sometimes mess up the buttons. The system executes more readings per second of button inputs, so you press a button once, and the module reacts as if it received 2 or more successive button inputs. This is especially annoying with menus like: press once for this function; press twice to do this; press 3 times for that function, and so on. Not speaking about pressure sensor boards when you make so many illegal moves by the time you finally succeed in entering the correct move.

Check the circuit board schematic, see if capturing buttons input has any part that takes input from the quartz. While you are at it, do the same for the LEDs flashing. It may happen to have a chip that shifts its outputs sequentially to 'ON' by taking input from the quartz, and now it's flasing too fast for your to see the correct pattern.


Trick or treat module,
Kostea

[ricard60]

Hi Kostea,
I test the 10 Mhz version with the batteries on as Steve did and did not work. So maybe is not a power supply problem. Anyway i will try to test it with a transformer with a 1 amp output.
The 10 Mhz version runs ok at 5 Mhz but sometimes the RAM gets some garbage so it could be the EPROM. I will make a contact for solving this issue.
I don´t have the drawings for this board. But anyway i will try to follow some lines over the printed circuit board from the buttons and se if any goes to the crystal.

best regards
Ricardo

[Kostea]

Ricardo,

It would be good if you got a picture of the 10 MHz module circuit board to see if you have the same components in the 5 MHz one. This should have been the first step in your upgrade project before you purchased any parts and replaced them in the module. The second step would be to find out if someone else has ever done this upgrade, and if possible get as many details as to how exactly was done.

There are times when I suspect that the 10 MHz module was totally redesigned, as opposed to just an upgraded CPU, RAM, ROM, and then keeping all the other chips unchanged.

Best regards,
Kostea

[ricard60]

Hi Kostea,
I just send a mail to somebody in the german forum schachcomputer.info about this. I also know another person in that forum that made this upgrade the same way but he wrote to me that the only diference is in the CPU, he has the W65C02S6PG-14. I saw the datasheet of this processor and the pinout is the same. The only diference is in the letter T. I will ask to somebody from WDC who i already wrote when i bought this CPU. He is from the technical assistance.

worldwide assistance regards
Ricardo

[Kostea]

Ricardo,

That's one of the drawbacks of the 6502 CPU. It has too many differences between manufacturers. Some support an extended instruction set, others don't.

For example, your CPU that has the extra 'T', that means 'TSMC foundry'.

Probably the support guy will tell you this.
That CPU must have some pins (RDY, IRQB, NMIB, BE, SOB) connected to (+5V) through a resistor, when not in use. That means that if those pins are not used in the schematic and do not have any connections on the circuit board, you cannot let them 'hang in the air', you must connect them to +5V through a resistor.

Older CPUs had the resistors inside the CPU connected to +5v. Go figure.

Best regards,
Kostea

[ricard60]

Kostea,
But i still do not understand why this CPU works ok with the old EPROM (V1.1) even at 10 Mhz (this means that the new CPU is wired ok) and does not do it with the new EPROM (V 10 Mhz). Well maybe your wright maybe there is an op code in this new EPROM that this CPU can not identify.

I just send a PM to Steve with a photo of my board.

confused regards
Ricardo

[Steve B]

Ricardo

make it easy for yourself:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Chess-computer-Meph ... 0452323695

best to ask the seller if it really is a 10Mhz
the photo is for the normal 5 Mhz

Just Heat And Serve Regards
Steve

[ricard60]

I just send an e-mail asking.

10 Mhz regards
Ricardo

[Steve B]

I just send an e-mail asking.

10 Mhz regards
Ricardo

While we cant see who is bidding ..there seems to be a bidding war in play here or someone trying to slowly chip away at a lead horse proxy bid
38 bids already?

10 MhZ Regards
Steve

[IA]

Hi Ricard60, look at the new catalogs of Saitek and Mephisto where you will find much information from Mephisto Polgar in many other machines.

Mephisto announced that Mephisto Polgar has 2100 Elo and the Mephisto MMV 2150 Elo...

http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/index.php/Mephisto

Regards...