Disappointed by Hiarcs Tournament Book !

[chess666]

Hi,

Several months ago ( before June version of the Hiarcs Book ), i gave to you the following improvement in a game

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Bg5 a6 8.Na3 b5 9.Bxf6 gxf6 10.Nd5 f5 11.Bd3 Be6 12.O-O Bxd5 13.exd5 Ne7 14.Nxb5 Bg7 15.Nc3 e4 16.Bc4 O-O 17.Qd2 Ng6 18.Bb3 f4 19.Nxe4 f5 20.Nc3 f3...etc

You have games in ICCF between SIM with this strong move 18...f4 you consider as ?! in the HB ( even the top player GM Langeveld played 18.Bb3 , missing this move )
Mr SIM Williamson can verify easely the strenght of this move !!!

So, my problem is not you don't find ALL improvements in the Hiarcs Book but, as you said me it is HAND TUNED, i expected you took in account improvements found by users ???
I have doubt now it is hand tuned, and in this case, i don't see a great interest because any serious player is able to construct a book ( just a tree finally ) with the good databases choosen....

Very confused

[packi]

After looking at it in-depth I agree that 18.f4 is probably the best move. But 18.Re8 is a also very good. Both moves deserve a ! imo.

[Harvey Williamson]

It is probably due to there not being enough games in the database with this move yet.

[chess666]

It is probably due to there not being enough games in the database with this move yet.

Indeed BUT it confirm what i was afraid --> The book is not HAND TUNED BUT STATS TUNED and so not so useful for find good NT sorry !!!
Also, as i said above, a stats oriented book is very easy to produce with good databases , so my disapointment because i don't see now the interest of the Hiarcs Book ( and as i invested also in the HCE specially for study openings, i am not very happy .... )

[chess666]

After looking at it in-depth I agree that 18.f4 is probably the best move. But 18.Re8 is a also very good. Both moves deserve a ! imo.

The big difference is, until proof of contrary, 18...f4 is winning at ICCF top players level and 18...Re8 not

[Harvey Williamson]

It is probably due to there not being enough games in the database with this move yet.

Indeed BUT it confirm what i was afraid --> The book is not HAND TUNED BUT STATS TUNED and so not so useful for find good NT sorry !!!
Also, as i said above, a stats oriented book is very easy to produce with good databases , so my disapointment because i don't see now the interest of the Hiarcs Book ( and as i invested also in the HCE specially for study openings, i am not very happy .... )

It is impossible to hand tune all lines several thousand positions are added every month there are millions of positions in the book. It is fairly easy to work out it is impossible to hand tune all positions. We do a lot of work but if you have even just 1000 new positions a month and you attempt to hand tune them all it is impossible. Therefore you have to look at what the major trends are and look at those.

[Harvey Williamson]

After looking at it in-depth I agree that 18.f4 is probably the best move. But 18.Re8 is a also very good. Both moves deserve a ! imo.

The big difference is, until proof of contrary, 18...f4 is winning at ICCF top players level and 18...Re8 not

But if we included moves on the basis of 1 or 2 wins most of the time they would turn out to be garbage. There are of course exceptions....

[chess666]

After looking at it in-depth I agree that 18.f4 is probably the best move. But 18.Re8 is a also very good. Both moves deserve a ! imo.

The big difference is, until proof of contrary, 18...f4 is winning at ICCF top players level and 18...Re8 not

But if we included moves on the basis of 1 or 2 wins most of the time they would turn out to be garbage. There are of course exceptions....

I agree BUT feedbacks from top ICCF players should be interesting ???

IF NOT, i repeat : Your book just add engines games to the books we can do ourself AND as i don't trust on engines games ....( because blitz !!! )

[Peter Grayson]

IF NOT, i repeat : Your book just add engines games to the books we can do ourself AND as i don't trust on engines games ....( because blitz !!! )

Wondering what you expect from any commercial book release? The moves are all marked that in most cases indicate some degree of personal attention and certainly when I have checked a particular line of continuing interest the status may have changed in next release. That does not happen by adding a few games. Generally the marking is accurate but of course recent results can change that. Sometimes there are added moves with no games indicating some analysis has been done to improve a line. The other problem when people add games is how often do they check the accuracy of the result or the moves? So many may add games but few do it properly.

I think it is a mistake to make a judgement on the book based on the handling of a single line you sent in. It does get marked !? as worth looking at and in future releases when more games are available could be get the full !!

The performance of any line will depend on who is playing it or for chess engines, which engine is being used. The book caters for a broad specrum of use. It is a massive work; an invaluable reference that is well worth the money. Look at the bigger picture.

PeterG

[chess666]

IF NOT, i repeat : Your book just add engines games to the books we can do ourself AND as i don't trust on engines games ....( because blitz !!! )

Wondering what you expect from any commercial book release? The moves are all marked that in most cases indicate some degree of personal attention and certainly when I have checked a particular line of continuing interest the status may have changed in next release. That does not happen by adding a few games. Generally the marking is accurate but of course recent results can change that. Sometimes there are added moves with no games indicating some analysis has been done to improve a line. The other problem when people add games is how often do they check the accuracy of the result or the moves? So many may add games but few do it properly.

I think it is a mistake to make a judgement on the book based on the handling of a single line you sent in. It does get marked !? as worth looking at and in future releases when more games are available could be get the full !!

The performance of any line will depend on who is playing it or for chess engines, which engine is being used. The book caters for a broad specrum of use. It is a massive work; an invaluable reference that is well worth the money. Look at the bigger picture.

PeterG

Yes, i understand and you are right !

The problem is i think you will not have many games now with 18.Bb3 in my example because 18..f4 seem to refute this move and, so, i just asked to take in account serious feedback based on top correspondence games, that's all !
No book can be perfect. What i underlined is this one is not what i beleived ( no user feedback is taken in account and checked in fact ....)

[Peter Grayson]

Little doubt 18..f4 will cause White to deviate earlier in the move chain so I agree it is unlikely many games will follow now with that line.

I've already adjusted my own book adding the analysis below to the database. Certainly looks favourable for Black but there may be an opportunity for White to hold in the 23.Rfe1 variation from the main line I've shown but it needs to be expanded out somewhat but without winning chances for White it is a case of what you said ... don't go there!

Thanks for posting the move.

PeterG

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2013.10.02"]
[Round "?"]
[White "B33 with 18..f4"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B33"]
[WhiteElo "2600"]
[BlackElo "2600"]
[Annotator "Grayson,Peter"]
[PlyCount "66"]
[EventDate "2013.??.??"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7. Bg5 a6 8.
Na3 b5 9. Bxf6 gxf6 10. Nd5 f5 11. Bd3 Be6 12. O-O Bxd5 13. exd5 Ne7 14. Nxb5
Bg7 15. Nc3 e4 16. Bc4 O-O 17. Qd2 Ng6 18. Bb3 f4 19. Nxe4 f5 20. Nc3 f3 21.
Qe3 (21. g3 f4 (21... Ne5 22. Qf4 Qe8 23. Qg5 Qg6 24. Qxg6 hxg6 $14) 22. Rfe1
Ne5 23. Re4 Qd7 24. Qd1 Qh3 25. Qf1 Qh5 26. Rae1 Kh8 $17) 21... Ne5 22. Qf4 Qe8
23. Qh4 (23. g3 Qh5 24. Qh4 Qxh4 25. gxh4 Rf6 26. Nd1 Raf8 27. Ne3 Rh6 $17) (
23. Rfe1 Qh5 24. Rad1 fxg2 25. Bc4 Nf3+ 26. Kxg2 Nxe1+ 27. Rxe1 Rf6 $36) 23...
Rf6 24. Rfe1 (24. g3 Rh6 25. Qg5 f4 $17) 24... fxg2 25. Re3 f4 26. Ne4 fxe3 (
26... Rh6 $2 27. Qxh6 $1 Bxh6 28. Nf6+ Kh8 29. Nxe8 fxe3 30. Ba4 $13) 27. Nxf6+
Kf7 28. Qxh7 Kxf6 29. Qh4+ Kf7 30. Qh3 Qd7 31. Qe6+ Qxe6 32. dxe6+ Ke7 33. fxe3
Ng4 $17 0-1

[Mark Uniacke]

Normally the move and line would of been added as I regularly adjust and add many book lines (often supplied by customers), but various things happened which meant I simply did not get around to updating that line.

It was updated a week or two ago and will appear in the next book.

[chess666]

Normally the move and line would of been added as I regularly adjust and add many book lines (often supplied by customers), but various things happened which meant I simply did not get around to updating that line.

It was updated a week or two ago and will appear in the next book.

Dear sir,

Finally, the playability for the move which win is 20% and 80% for the other because it was the best BEFORE !
So, you don't really beleive users ( i am sure your ICCF SIM assistant can verify what i say but i guess also he has no time for that...)
As i said above, what i underline is not your book is bad but it is statistical based and not very useful for a deep study of latest theory ( i have myself personal tree statistical oriented of the better games both over the board and correspondence as your GM+) and of course, i am very disapointed to not have an added value with some NT deeply analysed as i gave you above ...
As i bought Deep HCE too for my openings studies ( the move18...f4 is dubious in H-reference book by the way !!! ), it is almost for nothing . I just use the "players informations" for prepare against because i like better in HCE than CB12 BUT it is a lot of money for small things.

As i understand you don't have army of assistants for produce a REAL book, i hope however you will improve HCE , particularly for analysis features ( something like Deeep analysis in Fritz GUI or IDEA in Aquarium GUI would be welcome )

Well ! Your GUI satisfy many people and my requests are special i know

Happy new year to all

Note i forgot sorry : When your book helped Anand against Topalov, Hiarcs was the best engine ( with Rybka used by Topalov ) at the time and so, it was very useful for find some NT BUT now, i am not sure you use Houdini, Stockfish or Komodo for build your HB, hence my feeling about it !!!

[Mark Uniacke]

I am sorry to hear you are so disappointed.

If the book was purely statistical it would not have thousands of playable moves from losing games, since statistically they lose. The reason for this is those moves have been checked and made playable.

The move ...f4 was made playable some months ago and I had expected some practise of this position but it seems black has avoided playing the move in 2013 (preferring Re8) for whatever reason.

If this had been an important topical line it would of been examined in more depth, but work has to be prioritised and since the whole line is considered unplayable for White in the tournament book it did not get looked at, the priority went to playable lines.

You make it sound like the H book is rubbish which I think is pretty unfair. The book still seems to defeat other commercial books so I guess it can't be all bad.

[chess666]

Who played Re8 in 2013 please ? ( i speak about strong players of course )