Three times repetition of a position
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Three times repetition of a position
According the FIDE Laws of Chess (9.2) the game is drawn, when the same position for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves) is about to appear.
On Online-Servers like Lichess the three-times repetion is implemented.
HCEPro does not show a three times repetition of a position.
Could this be implemented in HCE Pro?
As chess arbiter i have to check, wether a claim of a draw (9.2) is justified
My old Mac-database Exachess (from 1996) detects a tree times repetition.
On Online-Servers like Lichess the three-times repetion is implemented.
HCEPro does not show a three times repetition of a position.
Could this be implemented in HCE Pro?
As chess arbiter i have to check, wether a claim of a draw (9.2) is justified
My old Mac-database Exachess (from 1996) detects a tree times repetition.
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Wenn Null besonders groß ist, ist es beinahe so groß wie ein bißchen Eins.
Re: Three times repetition of a position
This is inaccurate. The threefold repetition does not automatically end the game, it requires a valid claim. So, we cannot automatically assume the threefold is a draw.
We can detect it (it is detected during play), but we did not have any idea what to do with the information. I did not consider helping arbiters as I assume they use some DGT software for live games, not HCE.
One idea we considered was showing repeated positions within the game to help you detect transpositions. This will not be limited to threefold repetitions but will help to spot them.
Re: Three times repetition of a position
If DGT-Boards ar used, this would be true.
But in team-championships most clubs have no DGT-boards, but use instead normal chessboards.
The same situation is in smaller open-tournaments.
After a claim of draw according to 9.2. I have to check the game notation, wether there was a three times repetition.
In such situations it would be useful.
Could this be implemented?
Kind regards
Wenn Null besonders groß ist, ist es beinahe so groß wie ein bißchen Eins.
Re: Three times repetition of a position
Re: Three times repetition of a position
Does version recognize repition of a position?
I have not found anything.
I have not found anything.
Wenn Null besonders groß ist, ist es beinahe so groß wie ein bißchen Eins.
Re: Three times repetition of a position
No, it wasn't implemented yet.
Re: Three times repetition of a position
I'm probably stating the obvious and you know this already! One semi-automatic way to detect a drawn position would be to set HCE to analysis mode and step through the moves of the game. I did this with your test game and on the 3rd repetition the eval was 0.00 and no more analysis took place.
"I'm not so sure you're on the right track now."..."Oh! I see what you mean."
Re: Three times repetition of a position
This example is obvious - you don’t need HCE to see the threefold repetition.Yarc wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2024 8:31 am I'm probably stating the obvious and you know this already! One semi-automatic way to detect a drawn position would be to set HCE to analysis mode and step through the moves of the game. I did this with your test game and on the 3rd repetition the eval was 0.00 and no more analysis took place.
As arbiter in a tournamentor or a league match things are not so clear. An evalution of 0.00 does not always state, that there is a repitition with the same player to move and the same move possibilities.
ExaChess (Mac, no langer developed, see example at the start of the thread) did this while entering the moves.
Wenn Null besonders groß ist, ist es beinahe so groß wie ein bißchen Eins.
Re: Three times repetition of a position
If you need computer software to see 3 fold repetition, don't be an arbiter. Don't be lazy and do the work. It is just seeing whether the exact same pieces appear 3 times, the exact en passant opportunities appear 3 times and whether castling rights for both sides are exactly the same 3 times. It is not difficult at all.
Re: Three times repetition of a position
I did say it was only semi-automatic, it still requires the person to identify that it's actually 3-fold. I used your test game as an example, but it should apply to any game. Just thought that someone could quickly replay the game and if they see an eval of 0.0 and no more analysis this might be a draw by 3-fold repetition, so may help to quickly identify a possible 3-fold draw. If it does not help then fair enough, was just a suggestion.SchuBi wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2024 6:05 pmThis example is obvious - you don’t need HCE to see the threefold repetition.Yarc wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2024 8:31 am I'm probably stating the obvious and you know this already! One semi-automatic way to detect a drawn position would be to set HCE to analysis mode and step through the moves of the game. I did this with your test game and on the 3rd repetition the eval was 0.00 and no more analysis took place.
As arbiter in a tournamentor or a league match things are not so clear. An evalution of 0.00 does not always state, that there is a repitition with the same player to move and the same move possibilities.
ExaChess (Mac, no langer developed, see example at the start of the thread) did this while entering the moves.
"I'm not so sure you're on the right track now."..."Oh! I see what you mean."
Re: Three times repetition of a position
The only thing I would say to this is that as you are aware the 3-fold repetition rule means the same position at any point in a game. For long games where the same position may occur several moves apart, the draw may not be quite so easy to spot. That being said, from games I've seen, such repeated positions have been close together, but I'm no arbiter so cannot speak from experience.gads wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2024 8:12 pm If you need computer software to see 3 fold repetition, don't be an arbiter. Don't be lazy and do the work. It is just seeing whether the exact same pieces appear 3 times, the exact en passant opportunities appear 3 times and whether castling rights for both sides are exactly the same 3 times. It is not difficult at all.
Either way, it looks like the HIARCS team may be implementing a feature to assist with identifying 3-fold positions in a future update so not much more need be said.
"I'm not so sure you're on the right track now."..."Oh! I see what you mean."
Re: Three times repetition of a position
As this is not an automatic draw, we wanted to mark the places where the same position occurs. We are not yet sure how to handle the same position appearing in variations (useful for opening analysis, may be confusing for game analysis).
Re: Three times repetition of a position
Thanks
Wenn Null besonders groß ist, ist es beinahe so groß wie ein bißchen Eins.
Re: Three times repetition of a position
I appreciate the difficulty. Maybe the user could highlight the range of moves to be checked for repetition, this way the opening moves could be left out? Just a thought, but the downside is that manual intervention is required.
"I'm not so sure you're on the right track now."..."Oh! I see what you mean."