Cheating Allegation

[X__Gandalf__X]

A bit more info here:
https://www.vice.com/en/article/epz5n7/ ... y-admitted

[fourthirty]

Interestingly, the Magnus cheating scandal is currently the most read article on the Wall Street Journal today.



This article is more popular than the news about the NASA DART mission, which has the potential to save the Earth from a human civilization ending asteroid collision in the future.

T-Rex Regards,
Greg

[Steve B]

I am a bit surprised to see "Lumber Prices" come into the top 5 of most read
probably was a slow news day

Paperless Regards
Steve

[X__Gandalf__X]

Not Proof, but a Smoking Gun:

On Sunday, Yosha Iglesias, an up-and-coming chess YouTuber, posted a video using online software called ChessBase to review Niemann’s game against Carlsen. ChessBase also helps determine the engine score for specific moves. For those who don’t know, an engine score basically determines how good a move was based on how a chess engine, which is designed to play perfectly, would’ve played. For context, most world champions play at around a 70-75 percent engine score. According to Iglesias, at the pinnacle of Carlsen’s career, Carlsen was playing at around 70 percent. During Bobby Fischer’s famous 20-game winning streak, he was playing at 72 percent.
And according to Iglesias’ research, Niemann did indeed play engine perfect in this much-talked-about match with Carlsen.
It’s not super uncommon to play a single game at 100 percent, but on multiple occasions? Now, things are getting suspicious. The only time someone has consistently reached near 100 percent in recent history was Sébastien Feller, who achieved 98 percent optimal play at a tournament circa 2010. Later, the French Chess Federation determined that Feller was cheating by communicating with two other players. Basically, international master Cyril Marzolo stayed home and was being fed Feller’s moves by grandmaster Arnaud Hauchard. Marzolo would then put those moves into a chess engine, and send coded messages to Hauchard letting him know what Feller’s best move would be. Then, Hauchard, who was sitting in the same hall where Feller was playing, would sit at a table in Feller’s line of sight. Based on what table Hauchard sat at, Feller would know what moves to make. It sounds complicated, and it was. The ruse wasn’t found out immediately, but eventually, chess officials caught on and banned Feller from competing for over two years.
The point of that story is to show how unlikely a string of near 100 percent games is in over-the-board chess. Niemann, however, has more than a few such games, including one against Cristhian Camilo Rios in the second round of the Sharjah Masters on Sept.18, 2021, where Niemann played engine perfect for 45 consecutive moves. If that’s not evidence of cheating, I don’t know what is.

[Steve B]

I Quote Carlsen

"We must do something about cheating, and for my part going forward, I don’t want to play against people that have cheated repeatedly in the past, because I don’t know what they are capable of doing in the future,” he added. “There is more that I would like to say. Unfortunately, at this time I am limited in what I can say without explicit permission from Niemann to speak openly. So far I have only been able to speak with those actions, and those actions have stated clearly hat I am not willing to play chess with Niemann. I hope that the truth on this matter comes out, whatever it may be.”


This has me somewhat baffled
Why would Carlsen need Niemanns permission to say anything?
he needs permission from Niemann to speak openly about the proof he has of him cheating??
Neimann admitted to Carlsen he cheated but Carlsen needs his permission to say that?

it just seems odd to me...

Permission Granted Regards
Steve

[larryadler]

I'm assuming there is not 100% evidence, so he doesn't want to expose himself to a defamation lawsuit.

Kind Regards,
larryadler

[Steve B]

I'm assuming there is not 100% evidence, so he doesn't want to expose himself to a defamation lawsuit.

Kind Regards,
larryadler

Well he has already Defamed him
its clear to even the most casual observer that he refused to play him twice now because he thinks he is a cheater
i mean no one thinks Carlsen walked away from the table and quit the game because Niemann has ...
Bad Breath Regards
Steve

[fourthirty]

Not Proof, but a Smoking Gun:

On Sunday, Yosha Iglesias, an up-and-coming chess YouTuber, posted a video using online software called ChessBase to review Niemann’s game against Carlsen. ChessBase also helps determine the engine score for specific moves. For those who don’t know, an engine score basically determines how good a move was based on how a chess engine, which is designed to play perfectly, would’ve played. For context, most world champions play at around a 70-75 percent engine score. According to Iglesias, at the pinnacle of Carlsen’s career, Carlsen was playing at around 70 percent. During Bobby Fischer’s famous 20-game winning streak, he was playing at 72 percent.
And according to Iglesias’ research, Niemann did indeed play engine perfect in this much-talked-about match with Carlsen.
It’s not super uncommon to play a single game at 100 percent, but on multiple occasions? Now, things are getting suspicious. The only time someone has consistently reached near 100 percent in recent history was Sébastien Feller, who achieved 98 percent optimal play at a tournament circa 2010. Later, the French Chess Federation determined that Feller was cheating by communicating with two other players. Basically, international master Cyril Marzolo stayed home and was being fed Feller’s moves by grandmaster Arnaud Hauchard. Marzolo would then put those moves into a chess engine, and send coded messages to Hauchard letting him know what Feller’s best move would be. Then, Hauchard, who was sitting in the same hall where Feller was playing, would sit at a table in Feller’s line of sight. Based on what table Hauchard sat at, Feller would know what moves to make. It sounds complicated, and it was. The ruse wasn’t found out immediately, but eventually, chess officials caught on and banned Feller from competing for over two years.
The point of that story is to show how unlikely a string of near 100 percent games is in over-the-board chess. Niemann, however, has more than a few such games, including one against Cristhian Camilo Rios in the second round of the Sharjah Masters on Sept.18, 2021, where Niemann played engine perfect for 45 consecutive moves. If that’s not evidence of cheating, I don’t know what is.

Thank you for sharing this. I watched her video, and also the video of chess GM Hikaru Nakamura watching (and commenting) on her video. There certainly does seem to be strong evidence based on what is presented.

However, I find it curious that the NY Times published an article on the topic two days ago.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/28/cros ... pdate.html

Quoted from this NY Times article: "Ken Regan, an associate professor of computer science and engineering at the University at Buffalo, developed the system trusted by FIDE to detect when a chess player is using computer assistance during a game. After analyzing Mr. Niemann’s play over the last two years, Dr. Regan concluded that he was probably not cheating. "

The NY Times article provided a link to a ChessBase article:

https://en.chessbase.com/post/is-hans-n ... n-analyzes

Quoted from this ChessBase article:

"The world's greatest expert on cheating detection in chess, Professor Kenneth Regan, has analyzed all of Hans Niemann's games over the last two years, online and offline, and renders his verdict."

"The verdict: Dr. Regan analyzed all of Hans Niemann's games over the last two years, including online games, such as played on Chess.com and their events, and his conclusion is there is no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating. The wide range of results in a bell curve, with some good and some bad, is actually a sign of a healthy distribution of results. Many of the so-called points of suspicion are in fact quite normal and suspicion is really the result of faulty analysis by zealous amateurs. Even online his play has been quite devoid of anything unusual."

If the "world's greatest expert" on this topic (according to ChessBase) states there is no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating, shouldn't Magnus bring forth his evidence to prove his allegations?

I have no idea if Hans cheated or not, but the does appear to be experts on both sides of this argument.

Greg

[Steve B]

Carlsen just lost 2 rapid games to a couple of teenagers(16 and 19)

https://www.msn.com/en-in/sports/other/ ... r-AA132ztV

Perhaps they are cheaters too??

Tongue N Cheek Regards
Steve

[TomFurga]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/20/chess-g ... ation.html

Attack is the best defense?

[Steve B]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/20/chess-g ... ation.html

Attack is the best defense?

Hmmm.
Bringing this lawsuit is certainly not the action of someone guilty of cheating ...

The Plot Thickens Regards....

Steve

[Steve B]

Just heard about the lawsuit when listening to a local radio station that normally only reports the traffic and Weather

Looks like this story is making...

World Headline News Regards
Steve

[Erik Stillum]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/20/chess-g ... ation.html

Attack is the best defense?

Hmmm.
Bringing this lawsuit is certainly not the action of someone guilty of cheating ...

The Plot Thickens Regards....

Steve

I'm not sure that the law suit can be seen as a sign of neither innocence nor guilt. If he is innocent he has everything to win, if he is guilty, he has nothing to lose. It will be an interesting case to follow.
Regards Erik

[Steve B]

I'm not sure that the law suit can be seen as a sign of neither innocence nor guilt. If he is innocent he has everything to win, if he is guilty, he has nothing to lose. It will be an interesting case to follow.
Regards Erik

Perhaps...still..the lawsuit has brought the allegation to the attention of a much wider world wide audience.whereas before it was basically a "chess"story followed by a small group of people...in this way he has "lost"
the last time i heard anything about chess on my local radio station was when Fischer won the World Championship

seems to me..if he really cheated the last thing he would want is to make the allegation so publicly well known
however if he didnt cheat....he would be doing exactly what he is doing with bringing the suit

Time Will Tell Regards
Steve

[Erik Stillum]

To me this case will be much more interesting than Depp vs Heard , but I think chess will be suffering. No matter the result, the focus will be on cheating in our game. I do not understand Magnus' approach. In the best of cases it is a matter of ?! when it comes to the future of chess.

We have witnessed a development that started with CC1 and now our cellphone can beat the world champion. The world was a simpler place some years ago....in more ways than one.

Grumpy old man regards.

Erik